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So as Grant Hill prepares to visit the Knicks and see if the Celts are more serious 
about he or Rasheed Wallace, the Knicks will be hoping that the former Duke star signs here. At least you’d have to figure.
Sure, Hill brings professionalism and experience to the locker room. He also represents someone who can provide leadership to younger players in the locker room.
And again, I believe if he were to sign here and find himself once again in Coach D’Antoni’s system, it would create an opportunity to deal either Al Harrington or Wilson Chandler for you know who.
I’ve heard why people don’t think Minnesota would want Harrington, seeing that he’s an unrestricted free agent at year’s end and all. But, to me, that’s exactly why they should trade for him. If the Knicks also included Nate Robinson (should he not sign elsewhere) with Big Al, the Wolves will have two chances to secure legit, productive NBA players for one rookie.
That’s what they need right now. Players who can contribute to what they are building. They are under the cap, and for what? A key 2010 free agent? Nope. Ultimately, their target should be a perimeter player who can post up and who can create matchup problems for opponents. Seriously, the Wolves have to target a 1B free agent who can produce and I believe that’s Harrington. They can give him everything he needs, a starting spot, shots, and the ability to be one of the team’s two “go-to” guys. There’s a reason why Al has made his way around the league and has been productive wherever he’s been. It’s because small market teams acquire guys like Harrington because he’s attainable. He costs too much for a good team, and he’s just right, financially, for his production on a bad one.
Of course, the safest play for the Wolves would be to bring in a young stallion like Chandler who can cheaply step in and start right away.
Sure, it’s a long shot because next year you’d have to think the teams that sat back and conserved this year will have the itch to spend next year. But that, like everything else, is uncertain. If Al wants to be a Knick long term for far less money then you can’t make any deal with him because he can always come right back and no team would risk that happening. But why wouldn’t Al stay in Minnesota where they will offer him good money if he produces there?
With Ricky Rubio’s value at an all-time high, why on earth wouldn’t the Wolves look to add two legitimate NBA pieces to their rotation when they still have Jonny Flynn ready to take the keys?
You’d have to figure, based on the roster, that if the Knicks are serious in signing Hill, they must be pretty serious in getting ready to move another one of their forwards.
It just seems to make sense.
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that makes a lot of sense if you look two or three steps a head.
Its all speculation but the pieces fit. I like the idea of replacing Al Buckets with G Hill. And Buckets with another piece is a nice haul for Minny.
Maybe if Nate goes in a S&T to Portland then we use a part of what we get back as bait in a Minny S&T for Prince Ricky.
hmmm.. the pieces are starting to come together.
Looks like we may have really dropped the ball by not making that trade for the 5th pick. . . Now it seems we gotta jump through hoops in order to make this happen, giving up more than we would have had to -had we just made the deal for the #5 pick. . .
Very frustrating, but Donnie is likely keeping this in mind, and hopefully can get this done without giving up considerably more —-(than what we would have given up – straight up for the #5 comparatively…)
yeah but in fairness.. who but a few people thought Rubio would fall to the 5 spot.
Kahn has said he was shocked he fell.. I thought Rubio would fall to 8 and a few others thought he would fall but no one of consequence,
Now that Ricky is slotted in at 5 it makes more sense to pay up then pre-draft when it was uncertain who would be there — Rubio or Curry.
All in all if we keep Jordan Hill and get Ricky for Als’ expiring and some other pieces then i’m on the Donnie Genius bandwagon.
Tell me about it. He should get executive of the millenium in that case.
But what if we don’t sign Grant Hill?
What trade would we make then?
We probably could still let one of the 3/4’s go and be ok
If Hill signs here it shows hes not a winner why sign with the Knicks over Orlando or Boston who have a shot a the Championship it makes no sense.
Haven’t heard orlando wants him in the mix. And i’m not sure that the celts want him over Rasheed. Can they get both?
unlikely…
NEW YORK is a great place to live and the GARDEN is the best place in the world to play hoops
Yeah but if Grant Hill who is passed his prime signs with NY over a championship caliber team it shows he doesn’t care about winning a ring next year.
Good thread. I couldn’t come up with a plausible reason for the Knicks’ interest in Hill. Yours at least passes the straight face test, though barely. I think the Knicks are being nice to a classy man and trying to help him create a market.
If the Knicks get Rubio for Harrington and Nate (or whatever the Knicks get for Nate) then they have had a killer offseason. Same goes if they can get Rubio without having to give up a core guy (ie, Chandler).
Resign Lee and you have a fun team for 2009 and solid pieces and cap space to reap a FA bonanza in 2010 (provided of course they can move Curry and/or Jefferies b/w now and then).
I think your straight face test is overly generous. At this point, the only potential deals that seem to make sense to TD are the ones that support this premise he’s been clinging to for weeks. And when the TWolves eventually swing a Rubio deal with a team other than NY — the Clips, to name one, have a wealth of assets and the right market/climate — I’m sure this blog will just chalk it up to Kahn’s incompetence.
The Clips have Baron Davis who is impossible to deal because of his contract. Why would they get another PG? Baron Davis is good. Plus, they have Mike Taylor and Mardy Collins. Also, they have nobody they could give up to the Wolves. The Wolves wouldn’t want Chris Kamen or Marcus Camby or Al Thorton, and the Clippers don’t have enough that they could afford to give up…the Knicks and Rubio are a match and it looks as though Kahn must deal him, so it makes the most sense that Rubio would come here…the only other team that I could see trading for Rubio would be the heat, but they would have to trade Beasly, plus they have Mario Chalmers who had a good season as a rookie…
The way Kahn is handling this situation I feel like he is expecting much more than Harrington or Chandler, although he shouldn’t because he doesn’t have many better options…
Kahn is in love with Rubio…also, do you think the heat will make a play for Rubio with maybe throwing in Beasly…I bet Kahn would rather have Beasly than Chandler or Harrington…Miami is also a pretty good city with a pretty big market…what do you think?
i think that the KNICKS and T-WOLVES had a wink wink deal the entire time under the table
Tommy come on you gotta let this Rubio stuff go. It’s getting out of hand. Do you really think it’s worth it to trade Wilson Chandler if we sign 37 yr old Grant Hill?
And you guys keep mentioning Nate in sign and trades to Minnesota, but you keep leaving out the fact that Nate is a free agent. And free agents have to AGREE to be signed and traded. That’s how sign and trades work. The Knicks can’t just pick a team they want to sign and trade Nate to. If he doesn’t like the team he’s going to, since he’s A FREE AGENT, he won’t sign off on it.
Do you believe Nate is going to agree to a sign and trade to Minnesota?
Why would Minny want Nate, even if he would agree to go there? They just drafted 5′11 Jonny Flynn and still have 5′11 Sebastian Telfair on their roster.
Nate. like Lee .. and eery other NBA player will go where they can make the most coin.
Notice Turk didnt take a cut to go to Toronto. If no one else is willing to pay anything for Nate and Minny will lay close to 5 mil at him where do you think he will go?
I suggested Portland as a destination for Nate and using the S&T pieces combined with Buckets to make a play for Rubio.
All that said, Nate is more of a 2 guard/6th man energy scorer than Telfair or Flynn so he COULD fit there.. But I think a S&T to Portland for Fernandez and a future draft pick would have a good chance.
So you think Minnesota is the only team that can offer Nate money? Again why would they WANT another guard under 6 feet, and why would Nate AGREE to go there when the Lakers, Magic, and other PLAYOFF teams may be interested in him?
Nate has made it clear he’s happy in NY and wants to stay here. But if he’s going to agree to a sign and trade, I can see him going back to the West Coast so he can be closer to his family. Especially a team like the Lakers where he can win a ring and be close to home. Or a team like Orlando where he’s in a great situation as far as it’s a nice plays to live, and he’ll be joining a championship caliber team.
I love how you guys think that Ricky Rubio doesn’t want to play in Minnesota because it’s a small market, they already drafted a PG/small guard, and it’s freezing there in the winter, but Nate is ok with all those things.
Unbelieveable.
I love wacky trade scenarios too, but this is getting ridiculous. While we’re at it, why don’t we trade Eddy Curry and Larry Hughes for Lebron??
Oh come on, Curry and Hughes for Lebron is MUCH different than Nate and Chandler/Harington for Ricky Rubio.
My point is they’re both outrageous and never going to happen. When you think about a trade scenario, think about this: What does the other team need? What is the other team trying to do?
The Timeberwolves need a big SG who can shoot and a legit SF. Jonny Flynn is 5′11. So is Telfair. You need a SG who can play in the same backcourt as those 2 guys.
That automatically knocks Nate out the picture even if by some insane miracle he agreed to go there. He’s a horrible fit.
Wilson Chandler? Now he would fit alot better at the 3. But is that enough for a PG in Rubio that most think is going to be a star? Can Wilson Chandler get you a star, even though he himself is just a role player?
David Lee? Another horrible fit. Lee’s 6′9 and is very similar to Kevin Love, who’s younger, and will probably end up being a better player in a few years. Plus they already have one 6′9 PF in Al Jefferson playing center. So scratch Lee of the list. Again, Lee shouldn’t even be ON the list since he’s a free agent as well and would never agree to go to Minnesota.
The T Wolves can really use a legit 7 foot center who can defend so Jefferson can slide over to his natural position at PF. That and a big 2 guard, and a legit SF. Those are 3 areas that they could really use some help, and I’m sure if they trade away a young PG with star potential, they’re going to want a potential star in return.
Can you imagine David Kahn telling the fans in Minnesota “Hey I know I screwed up by drafting 2 PGs back to back in the draft, but I tell you how I’m gonna make it better. I’m trading a potential star PG in Rubio, for 5′9 Nate Robinson! They’re going to be a great fit in the backcourt together. Or how about a 6′9 PF in David Lee, who btw we’re going to have to pay 8-10 million dollars to come off the bench because he plays the same position as our 2 best players, but he’s not as good as them.”
you sa y the Wolves need a legit Small Forward and a shooter yet neglect to address AL Harrington as a great fit.
I think Buckets also adds some veteran presence to an other wise very very young roster. And Al isnt Soo old that it wouldnt be crazy for Minny to sign him to a contract next year. Although NOT for 10 mil a year anything less than that would save them money and give them a vet go to guy to fit in with Love and Al Jeff.
Say we sent Al Buckets and Rudy Fernandez over to Minny for Rubio –w we would get Fernandez as part of a S&T with Portland for Nate (with a first rounder included)
The could play Buckets at the SF , Love , Jefferson up front ,with Rudy and Flynn in the back court..Not bad.
Then we get Rubio to split time with Duhon and we have a future #1 as an asset from the portland deal.
we keep Chandler and sign Lee to a reasonable 6.5 mil or so contract. then everyone is happy.
if you read my comment i think i said that Portland would be the more logical landing point for Nate. With some of the pieces potentially used in a flip to Minny with Al or Chandler.
When a team that is OVER the cap (like (Orlando, Lakers etc) wants to execute a sign and trade for a player like Nate the team holding the rights has the upper hand in that WE (in this case) would have to approve the players coming back.
Not sure who the lakers or Orlando has that we would want (I dont want Farmer for Nate) but Im sure there are pieces that Portland would give up and that we would want (Rudy Fernandez for one)
That’s insane. You think the Wolves want to trade the rights to their young stud for the right to overpay a marginal player like Nate Robinson and for a few months of a marginal veteran, like Harrington. They were offered Battier and Brooks, the best perimeter defender in the league and a guy who lit up the playoffs, Brooks. If Rubio is really on the block, just about every team in the league could offer a better package than that pu pu platter of the rights to a 5′9 2 guard and one year of Al Harrington.
didnt mitch lawrence report that Houston rumor? doesnt sound plausible
First off Nate Robinson is a Great Great player for 5′ 9″ hes extremely impressive, don’t sell him short (no pun intended) last year he carried the Knicks and it seem like when Nate played well the Knicks won, If the Knicks could get to the playoffs he would be put on that level with those guys like Brooks etc. Arron Brooks and Shane Battier didn’t get the Rockets to the Playoffs, Yao Ming and Artest along with those guys did, AL Harrington and Nate Robinson would have gotten the Rockets farther that Battier and Brooks.
Seriously, first of all, Nate averaged 17 pts a game last year coming off the bench. We all watched as he would completely take over games on his own many times. Once he gets in his rhythm it is nearly impossible to stop him…although he is only 5′9 he is so quick and so hard to stop when he is on his game…he is a go-to-guy.
i totally agree with you Bart… nate was one of the reason the knicks to had aleast 32 wins, or wise they would have sucked..Nate is one of the best 6th man out there.. he can get wild but since he is a bench player just dont give him minutes to control him. so keeping him at low price is a need.. he sell tickets, jerseys, and a huge fan favorite… i dont see anyone can filling his shoe on the 09 roster. knicks fan knows the feeling when they give up a ok player then that player become a great player on someone else team, and regret it.
The skeptics in this group are confusing me. Two players that average 18 points a game in the NBA for a kid who has not played a minute in the NBA is a bad deal for Minnesota? Yes Nate is short, but he is a dynamic basketball player. There is a place for him as a productive NBA player in this league. Part of the reason that he WOULD sign in Minnesota is because their is an avenue available to him with this Rubio situation. He is a restricted FA and the team he would get a sign and trade to would have to have something the Knicks want in return. That makes Minny a natural fit. Plus the championship teams that are interested in Nate will not offer him much money. I’m not saying that its definitely gonna happen, but to say its impossible seems way over the top. If you add two competent NBA players to their current roster, They look alot better.
PG Flynn
SG Elliington/Robinson?
SF Harrington
PF Love
C Jefferson
Robinson/Ellington
Ryan Gomes
Rodney Carney
Corey Brewer
Finally, some more Rubio talk. It’s not out of hand, why say that? One, there haven’t been posts about him in days and two, and its not over til its over. Remember, he WANTS to play for US. That is crystal clear. He may have leverage, who knows. And maybe Kahn will be stubborn and try to earn a Vince McMahon reputation and not trade him, who knows. But it’s not over til it’s over.
I just hope Nate OR Lee leave for nothing. If one or both go, please make it be sign and trade
God this would’ve been so much easier if the Warriors didn’t grab Curry.
Sorry, meant to say i hope they DON’T leave for nothing
knicksbro – My big fear is that Miami will do the exact trade you’re talking about, and Minnesota would have to be crazy to not take it. I’m not sure that Miami would actually do it, but it scares me nonetheless.
What’s the word on the Knicks signing Delfino? How much would it cost to sign him to a 1-year deal?
If Delfino can be signed cheap and lured back from Russia, I could see packaging Harrington, Chandler, and, if necessary Nate to the T’wolves for Rubio and I’m assuming some expiring contracts to make it work. If it would net Rubio I’d be willing to swap Lee for Harrington. Apparently some ’sota fans want to get replace Love with Lee. See
http://www.rototimes.com/article/2009/6/Offseason-Overview-Minnesota-Timberwolves
(Not sure how Love fits in with D’antoni’s system, but he is major asset that could be traded for a more appropriate fit. Can’t really see ’sota making this trade, but a fan can dream…).
Here is what the writer says:
Ideal Situation:
Like it or not, this has to be another rebuilding season in Minnesota, and it will be one under a new regime. There are a number of coaches out there, and the team will have to conduct a thorough search to find the right leader. Hopefully they can find a big sign-and-trade deal with New York that involves David Lee and Wilson Chandler for Ricky Rubio, Kevin Love, and Etan Thomas ($7.35 million expiring). Perhaps add in Eddy Curry and Brian Cardinal ($6.75 million expiring deal)? Out of control, but the type of move I could see the roster-gouging Kahn and the 2010-minded Knicks making. Lee’s deal would have to be $9-$14 million in his first year for it to work financially.
Resulting Depth Chart
PG: Jonny Flynn/Sebastian Telfair/Bobby Brown
SG: Wilson Chandler/Wayne Ellington
SF: Ryan Gomes/Corey Brewer
PF: David Lee/Craig Smith/Oleksiy Pecherov/Darius Songaila
C: Al Jefferson/Eddy Curry/Mark Madsen
Strengths: Youth, rebounding, scoring, three more first rounders next year
Weaknesses: Youth, no playoff experience, too many tweeners
About that trade, they could probably package Beasly with like Jamario Moon or Dequan Cook. BUT, are they really just willing to give up their 2nd overall pick for Rubio? I think Miami was actually pretty happy with Mario Chalmers as he had a pretty good season. Giving up Beasly and someone else would really hurt Miami in terms of talent at the forward position. Beasly is probably just as valuable as Rubio would be and Beasly still has a lot of improving to do.
Harrington makes no sense for the Wolves, i’m surprised T.D. wrote an entire article speculating on it. Chandler makes some sense for them, and unless Kahn lowers his demand a bit, a deal won’t get done without a 3rd team or the Knicks finding a way to land some extra picks to throw at the Wolves.
The only teams that will have any desire to trade for Harrington will be teams trying to get under the cap with his expiring deal. not gonna work out obviously, sorry to be the realist but Knicks are stuck with Al next year.
I personally think Kahn is feigning his interest in a Wilson Chandler deal simply because a deal can’t be done until the July the 8th anyway so the longer he acts like he’s not interested he’s hoping teams will offer better deals. If a better deal doesn’t materialize he will trade Rubio for what he can get.
This is a league of “What have you done for me lately” and Kahn can’t afford to have Rubio sit in Spain for at least 2 years. As far as GM’s go its just as likely it will be a different GM in Minny enjoying Rubio’s talents down the road if he doesn’t get some value out of this.
Well I would only say we’re “stuck” with Al if we don’t land rubio (or another all-star-type player obviously). Remember he was probably are best player last year. He coould also hit the 3. IMO he’s pretty valuable both as a player on our roster and as a trading piece. Not too sure where he would fit in with Minny, but we’ll see.
We better shake things up this summer. I would give up Chandler (although i really like him) and pieces for Rubio and filler. And no, Minny won’t give us Love AND Rubio no matter how many bad contracts we take -that is just too nuts lol
seriously….i cant wait till nate plays in the playoffs…hes gunna shine and everyone is going to feel stupid. the only reason nate has those antics of pointless technicals is because hes so competitive and wants to win. Hes got the most heart out of anyone on the team…hes a fan favorite. ok, hes not a traditional point gaurd or 2 gaurd, but he will win a 6th man of the year award in the near future. letting him go is gunna be like when we let trevor ariza go. theyll regret it.
and trading wilson harrington and nate for ricky rubio? yea aight, 3 proven players for a player that hasnt even set foot on an nba floor? i respect ur love for ricky, but honestly, is he worth our whole starting lineup?
Finally some common sense! I hate the idea that the Knicks don’t ever let their young players develop. Mark Jackson, Doug Christie, Rod Strickland, and now Trevor Ariza all went on to have very good to great careers after the Knicks traded them away for nothing.
This is why they say you can’t rebuild in NY. Nobody has the patience to let their players grow here. Nate, Lee, and Chandler all they’ve done is improve every single year since they were drafted, but the fans can’t wait to ship them outta here on the hope that some young PG who most have never even seen play, and has serious holes in his game, turns into a star.
I guess I now understand why the Knicks passed on Andrew Bynum back in ‘05. No way the “fans” here would wait for a 17 yr old project like him to develop.
Based on what i read about the Knicks, Nate is a goner. So discussing how best to utilize his contract status is fair game. After all, its a fan forum. And we’re fans.
I’d love to see the Knicks develop and retain their young talent but if Lee gets an outsized offer then the Knicks will be better off dealing him or letting him go. Another reasonable topic of conversation.
In criticizing my earlier post (Where I wrote that it’d be a killer offseason if the Knicks somehow convert Nate’s contract and someone other than Chandler for Rubio.) you seem to have misunderstood that I accounted for the fact that he’s a FA. He can be signed and traded and the bounty from that trade can be dealt to Minny for Rubio.
I realize its a long shot but I enjoy talking abou it. Sorry
Jingo never apologize for you opinion bro. There’s a lot of common sense in your post.
When he finally gets there Nate is gonna KILL in the playoffs hes the type of dude thats gonna show up on the biggest stage he wont fade away, and I think especially for this team rather than another.
this is a comment from someone who understands basketball. thank u. Nate is so underrated and under-appreciated its disgusting. if we can land Jason Kidd to help the TEAM (not just the favorite scapegoat Nate) with decision making and poise, the Knicks will be the team that Nate will shine for in the playoffs.
you know, if i was D.W., and Dallas is giving 3 years, why not up the offer to 4? yes, i know it reeks with the same irresponsibility of the isiah era, but 4 years at MLE is not the same as 5 for Jeffries and Jerome James. 4 might be enough to persuade Kidd to choose NY over DAL, and you know he’ll be retiring as a Knick so maybe the last few years come off the books anyway. It’s much less risky than the possible reward (playoffs this year, experience and progression he’ll give the young guys, attractiveness to 2010 free agents).
@ 4lyfe
aright bro.
you win. ur the genius. we arent….
sorry for stating our opinions and having civilized discussions about the pros and cons of trading Nate Robinson.
….sound familiar??? I won’t go so far as insulting you and saying I hate you. Apparantly though it’s okay for you to call me dumb and tell everyone they are gonna feel stupid for their opinions. Seems very hipocritical to me though.
What’s up with the correlation between support for Nate and the inability to spell or punctuate at even a junior high school level?
First off, why on earth would we give up Harrington, Nate, and Chandler for Rubio+fillers?!? That is absolutely ridiculous. And we aren’t just “stuck” with Harrington. He was our best offensive player last season, and will be again this season. Even if we don’t trade him and let his contract expire, thats another $12 million or so off the books for 2k10 which can ultimately help us achieve our goal of signing 2 max free agents..
I would LOVE to have Rubio play in NY. He would be incredible to watch run the SSOL offense, but I don’t think we should give up 3 of our starters for him. Who is Rubio going to pass the ball to if we trade away Nate, Harrington, and Chandler/Lee??? I would give up only one of those players, and another guy like Duhon or a prospect with some upside from our summer league roster to get Rubio+contract filler. Remember, Rubio hasn’t played in the NBA, and can still turn out to be a bust. Do I believe he will be? No not at all, but it is always possible…
I don’t understand why everyone is so pro-Harrington. First of all, he single-handedly blew those 2 games where he got the technicals against the Clippers. The 2nd game where he did the EXACT SAME THING that got him a tech in the first game really cost us, and was an important game that we needed to win. I really believe that he also blew so many other games because all he does is SHOOT SHOOT SHOOT. He takes everything himself and ball hogs to the point where nobody else is getting involved. A player like him is a reason that Gallo and Wilson will take longer to improve. He plays their position, and has a scoring mentality to the point where it gets ridiculous to watch, and even Dantoni has to tell him to stop shooting..
However, he was a 20 ppg scorer, I just don’t think he fits in with Dantoni’s offense. The offense works the best when the ball is being worked around and we are playing SMART offense. Harrington comes in and just does not stop shooting. BUT, a team like Minnesota could use a scorer like Harrington. They need a veteran guy who can score as well as shoot the 3. Harrington has size at 6′9 and can still shoot the 3. He is a pure scorer, and although he may ball hog, Minny needs a guy who can take it to the basket like Harrington…
Plus, we can easily afford to lose Harrington because we have Gallo, Hill, Lee, Wilson, and Jeffries. Even if we also lose Wilson, we still have Gallo, Hill, Lee, and Jeffries to play the forward spots…
First of all, fans being impatient on a TKB forum has nothing to do with what actually gets done, so there is no correlation between the fan’s restlessness and the inability for our team to develop young players. It’s not like anybody in here is going to be making the decisions.
I agree though, we need to be patient with our young players and allow them to develop, but there is a good reason why everyone is so fed up with Nate. He might be a great talent, but he has no idea who to play within a team concept. All he knows how to do is freeze the offense and run ISO, and he may do it efficiently (sometimes), but it hurts the chemistry and the flow of our offense more than it helps us. No matter how talented he is, everything he does represents the type of player we are trying to avoid during this rebuilding process. When it comes to making the extra pass, or even just the right play at the right time, he has no idea what he is doing.
We do need to develop young players, which we are, and which we will be doing, (galo, chandler, Lee, Hill), but we are going to need a mixture of young developing players and veterans if we want to have a good enough supporting cast to win anything when our prize comes next year. You think galo, chandler, hill, nate, and Lee can surround bosh and joe johnson (not the best possible outcome but the best possible isn’t the most likely) and have even a slim chance of contending? I don’t think so. Even LeBron needs some established veterans.
Nate goes against everything this team is trying to stand for, against the very culture we are trying to establish. He might as well be a worse version Allen Iverson; regardless of raw talent at scoring the ball, do you really want that? I would rather have a 14 points, 5 rebounds, 5 assists from grant hill than a 20 points, 5 rebounds, and 5 assists from nate who freezes out his teammates in the process (not to mention plays defense in a lazy fashion with minimal effort.) We will let the right players develop, but there are certain ones we need to let go, and he is definitely one of them.
Agreed 100%….the team needs to analyze which young players have the most potential and which of the young players is best suited as trade bait. Fit also has alot to do with it. While Dantoni’s offense is a running offense it’s about taking a good shot in the first 7 seconds not any shot.
Nate subscribes to take any shot or overdribbling on too many occasions. Yes he can score when given opportunity and a green light but so can 95% of NBA players. Lee is a double double guy but his defense is bad even for a Dantoni coached team. While both players are immensley talented they may not be the best fit for this system.
I’d like to see Chandler progress, but I do think Rubio will be a special player based on how he played against the US in the Olympics. At 17 he held his own against the worlds best.
Gallo will most certainly get a chance to develop since he’s a fit for Dantoni, Hill might be the athletic big this team can use to block shots, rebound and finish on the break. We’ll see….
Agree 100%.
Gallinari has questionable shot selection hes a great shooter so that kinda makes up for it but he takes contested shots same goes for Wilson but hes not as good a shooter.
cant wait till he proves you wrong bro. no offense
and what you mean he goes against everything this team stands for hmm lets see running?….nate is top three fastest players in the nba.
secound. i can see why you dont like him…hes not pass first, .i feel you guys on that…but hmmm. ricky can really score the ball man…he hits threes like theyre layups with the fastest release, like ray allen fast. he powers through defenders when he takes it in. man he can really create for himself. ANOT
but i just wanna say one nba player that was like nate
jr smith…in the nuggets lakers series, when he cudnt get his shot goin, he made some of the nicest dishes iv ever seen. he learned the game, he developed to the point where he was a solid passer. stephen curry was like that his freshman and soft more season, but he developed. passing comes with iq and unselfishness…and i know for a fact that nate is unselfish when it comes to doing whatever it takes to win.
I love Nate. I think we all love Nate. But it seems the Knicks don’t love him. So he’s gone. That’s why we throw him into all these deals.
I bet he signs with the Lakers.
@ 4lyfe
How exactly do you know for a “fact” that Nate is unselfish when it comes to doing whatever it takes to win?
I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with you. I was just curious as to what the evidence was that makes your statement a fact? Did you see a study where Nate was shown to always make an unselfish play when the game is on the line? Were Dantoni and all of his teamates quoted in reverence to Nate’s unselfishness? Or is it simply because it’s your opinion that makes it fact? Cuz I’d just like to know if you researched this or if you’re just talking out of your a$$.
nate isnt just not pass first,hes like pass never,plus his dee is awful(ya cant go by steals)hes really uncoachable,drives d’antoni nuts,freezes out other players,and generally not a team guy
Bob Go you’re dead on. Alot of people equate steals to good defense. The ability to steal means that you’re a preety good gambler in passing lanes thats it.
Against the Clippers when AL Hung on the rim the first time in LA Nate started and had 33pts 15AST. 9 reb you can’t say hes pass never I think he fits his role when he comes off the bench his mentality is scorer as a starter he can dish too because he knows he has to run the team.
I approach Nate the way I approach Lee. I love Nate, but only for the right price. The thing is that I would rather have CJ Watson for 2 million than Nate for 6. Just like I’d rather have Gortat (I can’t believe I just said that) for 5 million than Lee for 10.
You’re right CJ brings similiar game at 1/3 the price
It’s tough to judge the Knicks effectively until we get a real PG in here. If we had an above average PG Harrington and Nate would have to play under control and the offense would run much better. Once Duhon hit the wall (not that he’s above average) and we had no capable backup it was every man for himself.
Last season after the Allstar break Nate went on a tear the only players averaging more points than him were Kobe and Lebron. I put Nate ahead of Lee in that hes a Elite 6th man if not the best in the game, Lee is not a elite PF. If Nate gets let go because of Dantoni that would be a shame. Nates only problem is hes kinda over the top in the regular season I would venture to guess in the playoffs he would be locked in and focused. When there’s losing going on coaches and players can have issues winning fixes everything.
The reason why Lee is more coveted than Nate is the feeling in the NBA that it’s easier to replace a guard who can score than a big that can score some and rebounds well.
I think Nate’s main issue, (not his antics, not his attitude) is his consistency. If he kept it together and brought some of his solid performances on a consistent basis then he would be more appreciated in the league. The thing that separates Nate and the elite in the league is that night in night out consistency. You shouldn’t have to hope that a player will focus and become locked in because it’s the playoffs. He should be focused and locked in 82 games in the regular season setting an example for everyone else. Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Duncan, those players are elite because they don;t take off nights mentally. They are always focused.
If Nate could be as consistant and focused his antics and personality wouldn’t really be an issue. Unfortunately at this point in his career he is not consistent and maybe the best situation for him could be a different coach or system.
I think N8 is underrated by Knick fans and even Kobe fell in love with his hustle,N8 is great and to trade him would be a mistake,he has more heart than any Knick,I hope we wake up and appreciate him.He allways roots for his fellow teamate,he’s a team player and I’ve seen improvement starting from his explosion in the summer league with his dishing and swishing.I love N8 and I truly hope we can keep his energy off the bench.He has a sweet shot and was shootting at a great clip before he got in a terrible slump,I believe in the kid and I hope he stays.
@knicks4lyfe: your sarcasm actually proves my point. Ricky may not be that great at creating for himself, but the whole point of the system is being able to create for others, not yourself. ESPECIALLY the PG position. That is something Nate lacks pretty badly. Going on a rant making fun of ricky’s unselfishness kind of just proves our point… . You sound like you want Iverson to be our starting PG.
And Ricky actually has a good set 3pt shot, so get your facts straight. he shot 47% from three in his league this year. When people say he has a bad shot, they are usually referring to his midrange game, which does need to develop a lot. His shot choice is fine though, and Nate’s is all but terrible.
Also, don’t buy into the cliche that this system ‘runs’ so the faster the player, the better. It’s not just about who can run fast. It’s about making quick decisions and moving the ball quickly up the court to the right hands, and taking the right shot all in a very quick period of time. 99% of NBA players can ‘run’ really fast, but that has nothing to do with it. Steve Nash is the best fast break PG i have ever seen, but he is by no means the ‘fastest;’ He still runs the ball better than nate ever will, though.
Speed has very little to do with it. In fact, when we say, “he needs to be able to run the floor” sure, we are saying he has to have some speed, but more importantly we are referring to the fact that he has to be able to withstand running up and down the floor over and over again without getting tired. It’s more about endurance and athleticism, work ethic and the stamina that comes with it. Yea, nate has that too, but you kind of missed the point when you spoke about ‘running.’
Jeff be careful, don’t disagree with knicks4lyfe. He will tell you that you’re dumb and he hates you. I know, it’s happened to me and I’m still recovering. Just a warning.
I think Nate is an ideal fit in the Vinnie “Microwave” Johnson third guard role for any contending team, especially one with the guys you mention – Kobe, Lebron, etc —- they’ll keep him in line.
Nate can be a star in this league in the right system. I don’t think SSOL is the right system for him, for all the reasons others have very eloquently stated above. I would like to see him with a more appropriate team via a S&T and LA may be a good environment for him. But who do we get back from the Lakers? Is there anyone we can get back that we can use as a chip to get Rubio?
Vujacic? Yue? Farmar? Walton?
Would any of these guys thrive in SSOL?
Oh and don’t forget that he is not only is physically outmatched on defense, but he also has no defensive awareness or IQ, puts in no effort to defense, and completely ignores the coach.
Why do you guys keep pointing out how much he can score. Who cares? He freezes out his teammates, it is as simple as that. You need to look at how each player effects the TEAM, not just himself. There’s probably some statistic that hasn’t been invented yet that shows for every point nate scores, somebody else on the team scores 1.5 less. I know that is an exaggeration, but take Galo for instance. We all saw nate freeze him out consistently when they were on the floor together. I want a player who can get the ball and make a quick pass to the right spot without even taking a dribble, and know that he made the best possible play.
Jeff David Lee is also everything you just said yet he is not unstoppable offensively like Nate.
David Lee is a smart player who knows how to play the game the right way. The only thing he has in common with nate, relative to everything i listed above, is his suspect defense. In terms of making the right pass at the right time and being unselfish, David Lee is a great player.
Plus, his defense isn’t that terrible, it’s just that last year he was our only big man in the entire rotation and the coaches told him to make sure, by any means necessary, that he doesn’t get into foul trouble.
David Lee definitely doesn’t ‘freeze out his teammates’ or make bad decisions.
I agree with you Jeff in that I value Lee over Nate, but I think Nate is better at D than Lee. Outside his lack of height and length, Nates only real defensive downfall is his tendency to overplay opponents and takes a few too many chances on defense. Sometimes it hurts us but sometimes it gives us an extra possession or 2. And sometimes it even wins us the game, i.e. the Pacers game at the Garden.
On the other hand David Lee is the exact opposite, instead of over committing he doesn’t commit at all. Yeah he’s good at staying out of foul trouble but at cost of giving away high percentage shots.
Don’t try and convince yourself that Lee is a good defender because hes not.
“not only is physically outmatched on defense, but he also has no defensive awareness or IQ, puts in no effort to defense”
That sounds like David Lee to me, I can’t count on my hands how many time he blew an assignment and Dantoni had to chew him out and overall he was just soft and took no pride in his defense. He didn’t seem to care if he was being scored on night in and night out and hes a PF/C.
Also there were countless times that Nate made plays for Wil, Lee, Al whoever check Youtube there are highlights.
Jeff, you’re on point with the freezing out comment….this is an actual Dantoni quote –
“”The best thing about Nate is he can get his shot anytime he wants, The worst thing is he can get his shot anytime he wants.”. …
Sounds like a coach who’s tired of selfish play.
Rubio may never get to the Knicks, so I’d like to hear from others which point guards they think would really excel in SSOL and what we would have to give up in order to acquire them.
Thanks.
Jeff I did see N8 do that to Gallo I watched every game but I would still keep him ,he has to be broken in like a horse he’s a physical freak of nature and yes that he scores is important because teams need a quick pickme up when the second string comes in and the way we run he’s made for coach DAnt,I bet if you asked the coach he would not give up on him,N8 is stuborn and that’s his problem but thta makes him great too so he has to harness his skill level and he will,I think we are all too impatient here and me included,it’s easy to give up on guys but N8 has talent and guts and is a great teamate and him and Gallo are tight,he gets a bad rap IMO I seen some nice assit this year fro number 4.
I’m all for anyone being traded as long as it doesn’t affect 2010 free agency, as much as Chandler has potential to be a good player, does he have more of an upside over Rubio, remember the kid is only 19 years old and has played in high competition like the Olympics, obviously Minny really likes Rubio, they did turn down the Rockets offer of A. Brooks and S. Battier for Rubio, so I think the Knicks have to make a better offer that the Rockets one in order to get Rubio, I highly doubt that the Robinson and Harrington offer will get it done though as much as it would be a steal from the Knicks end
If nate can be included in any sort of sign and trade that brings back a good young player, i would be all over that. As many of you have pointed out, he is a tremendous talent, and if that is the case, he should be able to get us something very nice in return.
I would include Nate and any other one of our players for Rubio. Rubio has a chance to be a bust, and he probably would be if he played for minnesota, but in this system with this coach, i feel very confident that he could be phenomenal. I don’t even know if he is available, but even if he was, we would never know until the day he gets traded; it’s Kahns job to make sure of that.
If we can get him, we have to get all over that.
I have a strong feeling that any shot of Rubio would cost us Chandler.
Off Topic, but supposedly ‘Sheed is signing with the Celtics. Shocker.
You guys are crazy. Nate isn’t a great fit in this system? This system is predicated on playing fast, pushing the ball upcourt, shooting before the defense is set.
Nate does all of the above.
How typical of the NY fan to want Nate outta here. He’s played for what, 3 coaches, with 3 completely different systems since entering the league? And yet he found a way to get better each year anyway.
The kid is a warrior. He plays hurt, never gets tired, and since arriving on the Knicks I can’t recall a single night where he didn’t leave it all on the court. He rebounds extremely well for a guard, and can carry the team offensively on any given night.
This thing about him freezing out teammates is ridiculous. He is not Zach Randolph. Not even close. His role on the team, as a SG is to SHOOT. He’s a very good 3 pt shooter, and a great midrange shooter, and he’s shown flashes of being able to run the point.
Remember that game he had against the Clippers in Los Angeles? He singlehandedly kept the Knicks in that game, and almost won it for them, had Al Harrington not gotten called for that technical.
You don’t get 33 pts, 9 rebs, 15 asts, and 5 stls in a game, if you’re NOT a great fit in this system. You don’t average 20 pts in December, 24 pts in February while your team is fighting for a playoff spot, and 20 pts in March if you’re not a great fit in the offense.
Especially under pressure. Especially in the fourth quarter. Nate is also, without question, the toughest guy on the team. Why do you think Kobe, LeBron, and Dwight Howard all want to play with him. It’s not a coincidence that all the great players respect his game.
Is Nate perfect? No. He needs to really learn how to control his emotions and play under control. He needs to play consistent defense.
I think it’s easier to tell Nate Robinson to tone it down, than to tell David Lee to play with more toughness, and to learn how to score on more than just putbacks and dunks, and to ask for the ball in the fourth quarter.
I think all this talk of him being traded, or not being re-signed is a wake up call for him, and is going to result in Nate being more mature next year. I’d love to see what kind of year he can have after playing back to back seasons under the Mike D’Antoni in a system that’s TAILOR MADE for someone like him.
The only way we get Rubio is if the Wolves like Wilson Chandler. There is no other way. Nate Rob and Al Harrington for him is a freaking joke.
I agree Nate’s physical game is great for our system. His mental game is way off though. The thing about Robinson is that he’s either Nate the great, or he’s Kypto. When he’s Nate, he’s well, great. When he’s Krypto, he’s borderline cancerous.
I think Nate could be a great star (possibly all-star) in 1-2 years if his mental game and bball IQ finally catches up with his physical peak. Once he hits 30 though, his athleticism won’t carry his game and compensate for his stature and he’ll have to rely on his smarts. Right now, it’s questionable whether he has what it takes to be an impact player in 4-5 years. We don’t even know if his Bball IQ will ever develop. I say it’s worth the gamble at $4-5 million for 5 years if we can’t find any juicy free agents this summer. Once you’re at 6, you’re pushing it.
I would be more than satisfied with Nate playing for the Q-offer though. Most players do follow the coin during free agency, but for some reason I feel like if any player would take a hometown discount, it’s Nate. He loves the Garden more than anything.
Hey the kid is what, 25 yrs old? Let’s cut him a little slack. Plus again, every year he’s been in the league he’s had to adjust a new coach and a new system. Nate Robinson with a yr under his belt under Mike D’Antoni could very well have a phenomenal year.
I hope the Knicks do the right thing and keep him here. I’d love to have a homegrown Knick here when this team finally turns it around. I agree with the poster that said that Nate will shine in the playoffs.
The problem with Nate is that he is too immature. When he wants to, he can be a very good player and get the team involved. Sometimes, we see that side of Nate and it is quite impressive. However, he lacks the maturity to play like that all the time and that’s why Dantoni gets upset with him.
My point is, if being immature is his biggest problem, that’s definitely something that’s fixable. Danilo Gallinari having back surgery as a rookie is something that may or may not linger for the rest of his career. Even with a healthy back he may not ever be quick enough to be more than just a spot up shooter in the NBA, we don’t know yet. His problems are not easily fixable.
Chris Duhon’s mediocrity after 6 years in the league is not fixable.
David Lee’s lack of defense, toughness, shotblocking, and go to scoring ability is not easily fixable.
Eddy Curry’s lack of toughness, professionalism, and heart is unfixable.
Nate Robinson’s immaturity you can fix.
Nate’s immaturity is fixable. So is Eddy Curry’s weight. The catch is that’s something only Nate can fix. A specialist can heal Gallo’s back. A coach or player can help improve Lee’s defense. In these regards Nate is a master of his own destiny, more so than the aforementioned (except Curry.)
A wise Vet to look up to could help though. I bet a Ray Allen or a Steve Nash would do him wonders.
I don’t know about you, but I’ve had back problems on and off for a long time. Backs are very tricky to heal. I agree that playing with a guy like Nash could do wonders for Nate.
Looks like Jason Kidd is staying in Dallas though, as per ESPN.
Eddy Curry’s problems are more than just his weight, and Lee’s problems are more than just his defense.
We all know Nate has the physical talent. “The Guy” posted that immaturity is fixable. The real truth is that immaturity is the hardest thing to fix. With immaturity, comes pride and also the penchant to be defensive to constructive criticism. Immaturity can only be fixed if a person decides to change.
I don’t equate Nate’s celebrations, enthusiasm and competitive nature as immaturity. I think it’s great and I love the emotion. The immaturity is the inability to stabilize that emotion when it becomes negative.
Dantoni knows Nate has a world of talent and while he physically would make a great PG in Seven Seconds or Less (SSOL). The problem is that SSOL isn’t simply about TAKING a shot before the defense sets. For the guards it’s about SETTING up the best shot before the defense sets. Nate isn’t known to set up teammates consistently and he tends to dominate the ball and take ill advised shots.
Nate is a scorer. A very talented guy that can fill up the points column. I would be so happy if he stayed with the Knicks and had a court vision epiphany and looked to set up teammates instead of scoring first and played defense on the ball like the second coming of Mugsy Bogues he would win a couple league MVP’s.
It seemed to me though that as many games this team won due to Nate last year the team also won despite Nate. He absolutely brings it 120% effort wise every night but his focus and results do not have similiar consistency. Part of that reason is Nate plays from gut instinct. That is not SSOL at all. SSOL for being fast paced is actually calculated and in the half court the high post pick and roll is something Nate struggles with.
Sometimes a player needs a change of scenery to reach that full potential. A different coaches philosophy, a different team concept. Dantoni and Nate do have issues with each other that is apparent by many of the comments between the two in the media and Nate’s aversion to changing any asppect of his game.
I actually believe that a better fit for Nate would be Golden State. Nellie’s fast break offense is all about natural instinct, and reaction. Nate would thrive in that scenario. For the Knicks it’s a little more difficult for Nate to reach his ultimate potential because the team needs a specific type of point guard and scoring is a product of the installed offense not one-on-one. Because of the smaller size of Dantoni’s SSOL teams a 5′9 guard no matter how athletic becomes magnified in a rebounding and defensive perspective.
And just an observation, but for those games that were mentioned above that were an example of Nate being great in this system, I would respectfully disagree with that assessment.
I watched a couple of those exceptional Nate games and the reason why Dantoni was frustrated even after winning the game was because Nate wasn’t playing SSOL. Nate was playing more of the isolation game that Cleveland relies on every 4th quarter and playoffs with Lebron in that role of dribbler, dominating the ball at the top of the 3pt line, taking his man off the dribble for a drive to the lane or a jab step jump shot.
Nate getting his own shot isn’t Dantoni’s offense and even though it worked for those specific games it was not part of the system. The system relies on movement, cutting, filling lanes and timely spot up shooting. Those are not things that Nate does consistently.
Sorry for the long a$$ posts everybody….looks like a Simmons column.
I disagree. You don’t give up on a player after a year. D’Antoni’s had Nate for exactly one year. He’s had lots of ups and downs, but when he was on, no player on the Knicks was better. Another year will do wonders for his maturity. I think he’ll grow up pretty fast cuz he knows how fast he came/is to being traded this summer.
Again, in comparison to Lee, Curry, Gallinari, his “problem” is the most fixable.
Supposedly we’re being told that Gallo had “succesful” back surgery so we’ll see on that one…..
Curry’s real problem seems to be that he doesn’t have the fire to be a professional NBA player, I mean how do you lazy besides making every year a contract year?
Lee is a good hustle player who has one major glaring weakness and thats defense. Who knows if it’s an athleticism thing or not…
The problem to me with immaturity is the unpredictable nature of it. Does he fix it easily? (Possible)
Does a light bulb turn on for him someday? (Possible)
How long does it take weeks? months? years? (all possible)
Then you have guys like Marbury who never got it and ended up alienating himself from everyone never reaching his full potential. Could Nate end up like that? (Also Possible)
I think that’s why I’d love to see him play for the qualifying offer this year to see if he can grow and mature like so many if his supporters believe in. He is so talented which is why it’s so frustrating to see his negative emotions take hold of him and keep him back.