How Do You Manage The Roster?

Why do we easily accept that a guaranteed contract means dead weight on the roster for the year?

This insanely archaean idea of Walshie’s that he will not cut a guaranteed player or buy out a worthless guaranteed contract probably cost us a few wins that counted last year when we were playing with 7 healthy bodies and D’Antoni wouldnt put Roberson in cause he sucked.

Ill set Marbury aside as a Dolan generated Fiasco.

IF Walsh can get a handful for cheap players for JJ he should jump at the chance. Once might work out and if others are dead weight JUST BUY THEM OUT.

It’s impossible to discuss this because there seems to be a divide on the value of Jared Jeffries: Some people see him as a legit asset, some people see him as untradeable.

The only fact we have is the Sacremento offer, which was essentially dumping Jeffries in exchange for Nate.

So, is Jeffries tradeable? Well, he definitely can be a serviceable player for the right team, but is way overpayed at a time when money matters.

This is a tough one. We need to get rid of Jeffries. Is there a better option than taking back three expiring contracts? I dont think so. I would probably pull the trigger and then focus on Jerome James and Curry.

I am not totally against what you are saying. I would have cut ties with Roberson early on last season. Actually, I would not have given him a roster spot in the first place, but that is a different story. However, that seems to be the way that Walsh operates. Hate it or love it. I believe in buying out players to fill your roster with the best available talent.

I agree with Biggie, I think Walsh would definitely do a 1 for 3 trade if we got rid of salary from 2010.

And also we still have Mobley under contract, so I am hoping that gets used in a potential 2 for 1 trade with Curry Though that T mAc idea seems long gone by now, but who knows once Curry hits the floor.

James is long gone, went with the Hughes trade last year. And his contract was up before 2010 anyway.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/95615/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-mon-sep-14-2009

funny interview with lebron james on the daily show. Jon is working to get him to the Knicks

Great post as well. I dont 100% understand the whole “Donnie wont buy out” strategy. Its not his money. I don’t think that it applies to this situation, where we get three scrubs and CANT buy them out if they suck.

The Roberson situation seemed like a pride thing to me. He made a stupid signing and saw no reason in the middle of a meaningless season to admit to a mistake and spend more money. To cut Roberson and sign someone for the min would be a waste of a few hundred K, because how much is that minimum player going to really contribute? I just hope he didnt cut a few yrs off Duhons career.

I’m sure if there was a chance for Donnie to unload Jeffries he would take it, but I doubt the Mavs have any interest in his contract. Jeffries isn’t going anywhere unless he’s packaged with someone worthwhile. Look for Donnie’s move when the season is underway and trade values are higher.

Completely forgot about that. So its only Curry and Jeffries now fucking with our 2010.

Yeah I agree. Dallas doesn’t have a need for Jeffries. I did not mean to imply that they would.

Im not sure if the Mavs do or dont “need” JJ.

They have a roster log jam and a small window to compete in the West.

THis situation and others where teams want to add a defensive role player are perfect opportunities to jump on a transaction.

We also know the Wiz had some interest in bringing him back.

I disagree with the premise of the post that the Knicks should “maintain their flexibility” and take their time in moving JJ.

JJ is a time Bomb waiting to go off. He could snap a leg or a wrist at ANY time or come up lame with any of the littany of injuries that have slowed him down every training camp.

The Knicks competitive advantage is the ability to swallow contracts and shit money. They should use that to take in players with cheap guaranteed contracts and if they dont work out give them a broom in MSG.

NO WAY an organization with a 75 some million dollar payroll at the LOW End should bat an eyelash at cutting a 4 million dollar guaranteed player if doing that leads to getting a better piece or improving the product on the court.

Compounding mistakes by keeping the ANthony Robersons of the world on the roster is just pig headed and archaic

They don’t need Jeffries. The logjam you’re referring to is at the 4. The only way they take Jeffries is if we threw in one of our rookie contracts. Even then, I think you’re looking at taking on Matt Carroll’s contract $4.7mil/4years.

Jeffries and Douglas and future 2nd rounder for Carroll, Barea and Jawai? I dunno, that’s the only scenario I could possibly fathom before the season starts.

I suspect that DW knows far more than any of us about how easily he can trade Jeffries. He probably already has some talks in place. If he was somehow offered 2 useless expiring players for Jeffries (something that you guys are acting like just happened, even though that is not the case at all) and he believed that was his only chance to rid the roster of JJs contract, he would capitalize. If he passed up such a trade, it would be because he knows he can trade JJ in other ways, later in the season.

Either way, there is no trade proposal available. Any time any little article comes out about another team that might be doing something, you guys assume DW is failing by not taking part in whatever goes down.

Nobody ever said dallas would be willing to take on a useless player for 2011 just to clear a roster spot. You guys act as if other teams WANT jeffries on their team.

My first reaction to this post was to go down the “why would Dallas even want Jeffries” route, but they are one of the few teams who could use him.

Forget their “logjam”, because it is already lowered by this 2 for 1. Jeffries is a versatile defender, can defend 3,4, 5 and even some guards, and Dallas is going to be so over the cap in 2010 it doesnt matter.

Actually the logjam I was referring to was on the whole Mavs roster where they have 16 guaranteed contracts.

JJ is a versatile player that is more of a small forward than a power forward. He is a trapping player who is at his best in a press defense covering the point guard or other players on the perimeter.

He is NOT a post player or a post defender and was poorly cast as that by Zeke.

In the west where there are many top level scoring guards JJ may have a place rather than the “bruising” Eastern Conference where there is more an emphasis on post play.

If JJ is an immovable as you all say then why is the Outcry not louder that DW didnt pull the trigger on the Sacto deal when he had a chance?

So in other words..

No sense discussing this further.

In Donnie We Trust.

… because he isn’t immovable. Donnie clearly has been focused on nothing but creating as much cap space for 2010 as he can without sacrificing our youth. That means that trading JJ is a priority to him. To me, passing up on the sacto deal just meant that he wasn’t willing to sacrifice nate at the time because he was confident he would be able to trade Jeffries at another date. I am still confident he will be able to trade Jeffries, so you can’t call the missed sacto deal a failure unless we are subsequently stuck with Jeffries in 2010-2011, which i would almost guarantee you, does not happen.

Donnie probably already has trade talks in place for stuff way down the road this year. He knows way more than any of us do about possible trades. In fact, we know absolutely zero; all we can do is refer to random articles about the mavericks and speculate about how we can get involved.

Given Donnie’s priorities, and his strict adherence to his plan, you have to believe that he knows just as well as we do how important it is to trade Jeffries. You can’t really do anything but wait until he does it.

And this is why I said there is no point in discussing this in the beginning, it all comes down to whether or not Jeffries is tradeable and we do not know that.

And, Jeff is right about one thing, we dont know as much as Donnie. But we do know about the Sacto deal. And that Nate isn’t signed. So it wasn’t worth it to lose Nate in trading Jeffries, but we also didn’t re-sign Nate. So, what does this all mean? I don’t know. It just confuses me. This is why I made that post a few days ago about Donnie. It just seems like there is no real plan. I dont get it.

Biggie as always i agree with you…

There are three things i need to see before i label this season a success…..

1) Trade JJ (package him with Nate and im ok)
2) Trade Eddie Curry (Package him with David Lee and im ok)
3) Get back our 1st rd draft pick from Utah or find another crappy team to trade us their first rounder….i say for harrington or lee if possible

i just am so pissed we dont have a 1st round draft pick for next year and we have to play these two knuckleheads JJ and Curry to get them trade value…

At best the JJ non trade to Sacto was a missed opportunity.

This sit back and wait for Donnie the Magnificent to work his magic just doesnt jive with me. Giving the man all this rope to operate without any discussion or analysis from the fan base this far into his reign is just way way too much of a honeymoon period.

Im sorry you dont agree with discussing potential moves Jeff. Your passivity in the matter is noted and respected.

See you when the games start.

I think it’s safe to say their 16-man roster is log jammed because they have 5-6 power forwards. I don’t think they’re looking to switch Jawai or Humphries for another PF to have 1/3 of their team play the 4. Will Jeffries really get minutes with Dirk, Gooden, Tim Thomas and Kevin Humphries?

I think you’re grossly over-valuing Jeffries by calling him “versatile” but even if they do play him at the 3, would they sacrifice scoring and get any playing time behind J. Howard, Marion and Singleton? No way he’s getting more than 8mins/game. The guy couldn’t produce anything even when given significant minutes and now Dallas going to take his contract and have him “earn” $1mil for every minute he plays per game?

Not. Happening.

Forget Dallas

Chris’ article was would you take three guaranteed scrub like contracts for JJ and I think the answer we would both give is YES

The secondary answer is would you cut or buyout these guaranteed “Robison” contracts if need be and I say ABSOLUTELY. Donnie would say No.. which I disagreed with.

“So in other words..

No sense discussing this further.

In Donnie We Trust.”

There you go again turning this into “Donnie vs. Anti-Donnie” discussion. That’s like saying just because I think the “Birthers” are a bunch of raisincakes that means I blindly follow Obama. Huge logical flaw in the works there.

So in other words…

No sense in bashing Donnie for a trade that is nonsensical and will NEVER happen.

In Suddenly Fashionable Populist Outrage We Trust.

More monday morning quarterbacking. At the time of that trade scenario, Nate was our best player and we had a legit shot at the playoffs. No one knew the market would be so dismal this off season. Also, who was going to take all of Jeffries minutes when we already had a PF playing the 5 spot???

We’re not even sure if Nate and Jeffries for Kenny Thomas was the actual deal, if there was really a deal at all. Even so, it was a roll of the dice. No one can see the future. To trade our best player at the time and to deplete our strength down-low even more than it already was is a tall order, especially when it was reasonable to believe that a deal could be worked out in the off-season before the cap projections.

It back-fired admittedly, but to trade our best player (and fan favorite) in the middle of a playoff run would have drawn just as much criticism. People would be crying that we threw away the season.

Just because it seems like an easy decision now doesn’t mean it was then.

Its NOT Monday Morning QBing. I was all for the Deal at the time.

We already discussed our “Shot” at the playoffs was laughable after a 4-10 December and a barely 500 January that lead to a 6 game losing streak in February.

There was no playoff “run”. The squad was bobbing for air and ready to go down for the count. Nate was playing 40 a game and Duhon was on life support.

A Good GM can discern the difference between a legitimate playoff run and a false hope.

When you throw around lines like
“DW knows far more than any of us” and

“If he was somehow offered … and he believed … , he would capitalize”
and lastly

“If he passed up such a trade, it would be because he knows he can trade JJ in other ways, later in the season.”

Why even continue to discuss any scenarios because Donnie the Magnificent is behind the wheel and we will all get to our destination without worry.?.

I believed the captain of the Titanic was a storied legendary seaman whom all on board trusted to get where they are going without question. Unfortunately they hit an iceberg. Funny how that turns out sometimes.

That’s what I’ve been saying all along, Biggie. Forget Dallas.

To adress your 2nd point. I think it’s enormously presumptuous to think that just because Donnie didn’t buyout Robeson, it is suddenly his “philosophy” to not buyout contracts? It’s not like Roberson rotted on the bench the whole year. He was traded. Why buyout someone who you can trade?

You really don’t know what Donnie would do and neither do I. I hope Donnie doesn’t know what he would do either and make decisions on a case-by-case basis.

Oh now come on.

Donnie has stated many many times that it is his “philosophy” NOT to offer players buy outs.

That is a simple indisputable fact.

He was added as filler to a larger ttrade. It’s not like Chicago came calling for Anthony Roberson. IF he want there DW could have thrown a mil in the deal to make the salaries match up.

Why do you buy players out? So you can bring in other players who MAY be useful. Even the most ardent DW supporters agree that Roberson was only kept around because of his guaranteed deal.

There is a gap of information that a GM has and the fan base doesn’t whether you like it or not. In those statements you quoted, I read, “let’s see what happens this season.” And you read “Donnie the Magnificent.” This trust that you loathe doesn’t come from blind adoration. This is a trust comes simply from the fact that Walsh has access to a lot more information than we do, thus him knowing “far more than any of us.”

There is plenty of doubt concerning your charges against Walsh and you refuse to give him the benefit of ANY of it. Instead you sensationalize situations to the level of the Titanic sinking. Not my style, I’m seeing how the first half of the season plays out. I prefer to leave the harbor before I start crying “Iceberg!”

Why don’t we just wait and see what will be of the Knicks?
Who knows that we might be in the playoff?
And if we do, E Curry might be the most
improved player of the year.
And I think we have a good chance to be in the playoff.

I wasn’t saying ‘in donnie we trust.’ I was pointing out that none of us have any way of knowing what types of talks go on between GM’s, until an actual deal gets done.

So if we decide to pass up on a trade to get rid of JJ, you have to assume that donnie ‘knows’ that he’ll be able to move him at another time.

Because, as he has stated many times, (which many of you have started complaining about) his priority is to have lots of cap room in 2010.

So if he passes on trading jeffries for a couple useless players who are expiring, i am confident that that implies he has other methods of dumping the contract later on.

That would also imply that the sacto deal was not a failure, because there is a large possibility we end up trading him anyway

On Alan Hahn’s twitter it says he spoke to Rooster and he is 100 percent!

-biggie

its unfortunate that as fans me and you are unable to know what is going on in the office. You have no idea at all what happens in there every day, and neither do I. Donnie probably discusses possible trade scenarios for now, and even for later in the year, with mulitple teams every day. It’s very likely that he has a few deals out there for the taking, that he hasn’t taken yet because he has no reason to.

This is the way basketball is… fans just don’t know anything until it happens.

So i am not having ‘blind faith’ in donnie. I just know the facts, and the facts are that he wants to have as much cap space as he can in 2010 without trading youth. … And that means trading jeffries is a priority… and THAT means that if he passes up trading him to one team, he probably knows he could trade him to another team.

You can’t criticize him for every single deal he doesn’t make, because you have NO IDEA what deals he will end up making. We have like 6 months to get this stuff done. If you don’t even trust his intentions, and you truly believe he wants to keep JJ on the roster, then that is just illogical lack of trust.

I didnt see “lets see what happens next season” in any of those quotes.. Just deference to Donnie to do the right thing unchecked or without debate from the fan base.

No other GM in basketball or in NYC gets that kind of pass. And you are well within your rights to give him that pass if you feel so.

I am not sensationalizing the captain of a large cruise ship with Donnie’s role. And the boat left the harbor well over a year ago.

Its fair to look at his decisions made to date and discuss options that are out there in the market.

Otherwise why even cry Iceberg? Just keep dancing.

Otherwise, every day he doesn’t trade JJ is a failure… and that’s just a wierd way of looking at it. If he trades JJ an hour before the trade deadline, then every day he didn’t trade JJ will be neutralized, if not positive (because he will probably have helped us play defense to close out some games.)

So the summer before the season even starts, its unfair to criticize a new GM just because of all the random moves he ISN’T making, when you don’t even know whats on the table and what isnt, or what will be on the table later and what won’t be.

All i know is that he stated his intentions, and i believe that he will stick to what he said, and that means JJ is gonna be out of here either way.

Unless we trade Curry somehow…

All the hating and impatience going on in here is baseless because there is so much time before anything needs to get done, and there’s no way to know what will transpire….

What if we do, by some miracle, trade curry at the deadline… all of a sudden we’re going to be watering at the mouth about the offers we can make next summer, and everything he did up to that point will seem genius.

Until you know for a fact that we aren’t going to trade JJ (or even curry) you can’t really pass judgement on the job he is doing.

I am not saying he succeeded, but there is no way he has failed in any respect, and there is no reason to think he is currently doing something wrong.

Well said.
The deadline will be the time to be truely critical of Donnie, not now.

No one is doubting Donnie’s intentions or anything like that. That is just plain made up./

The question was raised in the article written by Chris of whether Donnie should attempt to trade JJ for a few young cheap contracts using other teams roster jams (over 15 players under contract) .

Chris and others have said maybe we should wait until mid season or when we can get ONE serviceable player in return. My response was HELL NO. DW should be out there today and everyday trying to get anything he can for JJ as the top priority. “Roster flexibility” be damned.

The secondary issue came up of whether DW is right in not cutting guaranteed expiring contracts outright. Some think that is not his philosophy fo rsome reason.

Restating the obvious that DW has more info that anyone here does no eral good to further the debate that Chris started with the post./

I haven’t seen quotes of Donnie saying that but you generally know your Donnie quotes so I’ll take your word for it.

But my point still stands. It’s a moot argument for a player who got traded anyway. Do you really think buying out Roberson between the beginning of the season to when he got traded would have made any different on the outcome of our season? Really?

Is Dolan going to spend money to sign another scrub contract only to trade that contract away? If Roberson is just filler then why does it even matter? Are you insinuating if we signed a FA mid-season we would have made the playoffs?

IMnot sure what difference it would have actually made in the results. THat is all hypothetical and worthless conjecture.

I know at a time early in the season we were playing with 8 healthy bodies — one of which was so horrible he couldnt even stay on the court of 4 minutes a nite.

The general principle of not buying out players in their final year is archaic and makes no sesne to a team with the resources that the Knicks have. Period.

“I didnt see “lets see what happens next season” in any of those quotes.. Just deference to Donnie to do the right thing unchecked or without debate from the fan base.”

Oh I see, it should be a more democratic way managing this team. But only when it suits your opinion. Would you have wanted Donnie appealing to the fan base in a decision to send Nate and Jeffries to Sactown? Because I tell you, it wouldn’t have happened.

No, thank you on mob rule when it comes to running the Knicks. But that’s a whole different post. The point is that there is a fundamental difference in how we view criticism. What you see as deference is really just acknowledging that perhaps Donnie is going the right way about this season, considering the obstacles which lay in front of the Knicks. Because the fact remains, we don’t know what will and won’t payoff until the season is underway.

“No other GM in basketball or in NYC gets that kind of pass. And you are well within your rights to give him that pass if you feel so.”

How can I give him a pass? We have yet to see the consequences of his decision. Maybe his inaction has been a brilliant decision and pays off. Then a pass is superfluous. If I’m still content with Donnie after a sub-32 win season with no Lebron or Wade OR room for two max contracts, then that would be a pass.

“I am not sensationalizing the captain of a large cruise ship with Donnie’s role. And the boat left the harbor well over a year ago.”

Its fair to look at his decisions made to date and discuss options that are out there in the market.

Otherwise why even cry Iceberg? Just keep dancing.”

To continue the metaphore… We just began building the boat a year ago, how could it have left the harbor? Again, I think this is a fundamental difference in our approach to Walsh.

I’m not against debate, I encourage it. But these have gone from opinions to pitchforks and torches. We can debate the merits of moves or non-moves civilly while acknowledging is that no one can be right or wrong until the season unfolds. Then we can respect peoples opinions without the need for these cliche diatribes about kool-aid drinking, idol worship and giving passes.

Well I’m re-discussing it.

How can you dismiss a whole month as “barely 500″. January put us at .457 in a weak eastern conference. Over half of our wins that month were against playoff teams!

We dipped in early February but we had a brutal schedule. We had to face the Lakers, Cavs and Celtics in which we lost no game by more than 10 points. Then took a jet lagged west coast trip and nearly beat the Blazers and lost a heartbreaker to the Clippers.

But the last game before the trade deadline we beat the Spurs. Nate in the best stretch in his career puts up 32/10r/3a and a steal while shooting .565 from the floor and .500 downtown.

Not to mention Jeffries was holding down 20+mins a game for us. Do we give those minutes to Kenny Thomas?

We still had a legit chance at the playoffs. Unfortunately everything broke down at the end of the season. But you can’t blame Donnie for injuries. So can you really blame him for not pulling the trigger? Especially when it’s not inconceivable that the same offer would be available in the off-season? It could still happen this season.

I don’t care how good of a GM you are, you can’t predict late season injuries.

He was also negotiating a much much larger buyout with Marbury last year. Hopefully the whole “I don’t believe in buying out players” thing was just posturing for those negotiations. We’ll see what happens this year. I suspect he’ll do whatever it takes to shed 2010 money and become competitive, including buying out players you get back from a horrible trade. At least I hope so

“A Good GM can discern the difference between a legitimate playoff run and a false hope.”

Biggie,

just for the record…are you saying that Donnie Walsh is not a good GM?

I may have been a little too optimistic, but I thought we had a shot for the 8th spot at the trade deadline…It was a long shot, but we were only a few games out.

I’m sure we have all watched sports long enough to see that “Cinderella” team get hot and make it into the playoffs. It’s very exciting when it happens. I would have been upset with Walsh if he took that chance away from us by trading one of out best players at that time just to dump JJ’s contract in 2010.

We had another entire year to trade JJ. It was not a time to panic, and I am glad we don’t have a GM handled the situation calmly. Looking back it may have been the wrong call, but I agreed with the philosophy behind it.

I gotta go with Biggie on this. If JJ (not to mention Curry) is our albatross, a bag of balls will do. If, hypothetically, someone, like Dallas, would offer 2 or 3 expirings for JJ for whatever reason (roster flexibility in Dallas’ case), then why not. And according to your own musings Circle, like Roberson, whose to say 1 or more of those expiring guys we would get would not become an ‘asset’ to a trade ala Roberson did. If JJ needs to go, stop dancing and get rid of him. We’re not a legit playoff contender this year anyways…all of our eggs are in 2010…and like I’ve been saying, I think its a fat chance we sign a max contract because we’ll have 5-6 serviceable guys under contract and 6-7 empty bench seats to ‘tempt’ one with!

That being said, I’m not into bashing DW but the anxieties and frustration is hard to ignore…

if jeffries is as big of a useless player as you say he is,then DONNIE cant possibly be that optimistic he can trade JEFFRIES AT ANOTHER TIME.he would,as they say,take the trade and run like a thief

4)find a starting point guard

Stick to the plan Mr. Walsh.

Clear the cap space for 2010.

This season will be a disaster anyway. Let’s face it. How many games will Knicks win? 32-36? Tops. So why bother?

If there is a chance to get rid of Curry and/or Jeffries monstrous contracts – go for it. Even if it means two “young players with unproven track records”. Who by the way (Jawai and?)?

Some sources say that contact for Chinese Magic Johnson is partially guaranteed. Can somebody comment on that?

Donnie made a mistake by thinking a team not playing 500 ball was in the hunt for the playoffs.

Plain and simple. He made a BAD decision. Im not condemning his whole tenure for that just calling a spade a spade.

Its ok to say “In Donnie We Trust” if that is what you truly believe.

Trading JJ and Nate at the DL was not a “panic move” it was the smart thing to do to stick with the plan and sell high.

If Donnie handled the situation calmly he would have pulled the trigger on that deal. But probably Donal got in his ear about a team under 500 getting a shot at the playoffs and all deals were called off.

what. ever. I judge DOnnie on each move not after some future date and that non move was fail.

they’re trying to have it both ways Bob..

JJ is useless and cant be traded but dont worry about not taking a deal on teh table cause we can always trade him later.

Three statements:

#1. Last year two .500 teams and one team under .500 made the playoffs

#2 Two years ago one .500 team and two teams under .500 made the playoffs (if you were a Hawks fan that year how would you feel if your gm traded away your chances for a playoff run they were 37-45…they took the eventual champion Celtics to 7 games…don’t you think that was an valuable playoff experience for that team…one season later and they are the #4 seed in the east)

So, the past two years 37.5% of the playoff teams in the east that make the playoffs were .500 or worse teams

#3. The only person who uses the phrase “In Donnie We Trust” on these boards is YOU. You may have been the one who made it up (I’ll admit it was a good one) and you are proud of that, but it’s getting a little old now…