“Oak is NY”

Here is a man, in Oakley, who was far less athletic than Lee, shorter than Lee, slower than Lee and yet he is by far a better player than _avi_ will probably ever be. The only thing that keeps _avi_ from being as good as or even better than Oakley is that he is soft and he doesn’t put in the same effort. Physically he has every advantage.

Charles Oakley is definitely one of the all-time greats in Knicks history and I would even go further to say he was one of the top ten power forwards in his era.

My advice to _avi_ is get in the gym get stronger and hustle for more than just rebounds, hustle to win the game, hustle to stop your man, make your free throws when the game hangs in the balance, hustle to help your teammates on defense and live up to the tag you’ve been given (and have yet to earn imo) as being a hustle player then maybe you can be mentioned in the same breath as one of the greatest hustle players of all time.

My Favorite player of all time Oak, he’s the epitome of a Hrad worker, Hustler and a Winner! He should be on the coaching staff cracking a whip on Fat Curry’s ass. Also he can teach D.lee about taking charges and giving hard fouls,2 things Lee needs to learn. Oak’s the Best.

Imeant “Hard” not hrad

The Oak man is my second favorite knicks of all time behind John Starks. I used to love when Starks big mouth got him in trouble with the opposition and in less than 3 seconds Charles big chest would be there backing his teammate. Ahh the 90′s I miss them! I have a feeling that we won’t see that anymore.

since when is david lee athletic?ive never heard those 3 words uttered in the same sentence.you cant ask anybody just to go out and be as tough as CHARLES OAKLEY

loved the oakman but my favorite knicks are spree an starks..

I said he is more athletic than Oakley. Charles’ 2 inch vertical is the stuff of legend, wasn’t very fast and he was stiff, while _avi_ has shown an ability to run, he’s a quick leaper who can finish above the rim with either hand (the same ability needed to block shots) and he’s very fluid and agile for a big man. _avi_ is far from not athletic, I think people make excuses for this guy too much. I repeat, Oakley was shorter, slower and had 0 vertical, yet he guarded 5′s (centers) all the time and held his own. He also was one of best help defenders in the league and one of the better one on one defenders even when he was overmatched.

It’s coming to the point where you’re making every post a Lee bash-a-thon. No one was making excuses. You’re just going out of your way to trash him at this point.

We all agree, Lee doesn’t play defense. We get it.

They don’t make a lot PFs like the Mighty Oak anymore. Him and Anthony Mason. 4′s are more like big 3′s nowadays rather than smaller 5′s. Times, they are a-changin’.

I hardly think no one is making excuses, I’ve heard plenty, from “no one else on the team plays defense” to “he just can’t” to “he’s playing out of position” to “if he played with teammates who played better defense he’d be a better defender”, none of which makes any sense.

I admit I do bash _avi_ quite a bit, but it’s partly because (1.) I liked him when he came into the league and know (and want) he can take the next step and be a better player, he has the ability with a little effort, to be a good defender. (2.) he gets labeled a hustle player when he clearly isn’t. (3.) no one else is hard on him, they just accept that he doesn’t try to get better on defense for 4 years OR they never even mention (the media mostly) his lack of effort on defense. (4.) the blatant mancrush/bromance many fans have with this guy in spite of it all is annoying and it needs to be balanced out with some tough love.

I agree with Circle Limit…. Has is just looking for any way that he can bash Lee at this point. Comparing Lee and Oak is completely ridiculous and unfair. Both players played in compoletely different eras. They played in completely different systems with different levels of talent around them.

Realize I’ve posted many times that David Lee is not in the teams long term plans and I feel he should be traded for something of value or allowed to leave at the end of the season for the sake of signing or trading for an elite player but at the same time lets be fair and rational.

Lee plays out of position for this team at the 5 mostly and Oakley was a staple at the PF position he was made for. Oakley played next to a hall of fame center (Ewing) and Lee has not had the same amout of help down low (Channing Frye, Eddy Curry, Zack Randolph, and now Darko).

Compare their eras. The rule changes have changed this league to more of an international type style. If Oakley came in the league today (as much as I loved him back then) he would not be as effective due to the league moving away from handchecking and physical play. The NBA finals this year had 2 finesse teams playing for the title (Lakers, Magic). The Celtics with Garnett are considered tough today but if you put them back into Oaks era they would be considered finesse.

Lee would not have fared well back then. He would have been consumed by all of the tough play night in and night out. Oak was perfect for his era and Lee is doing what he can in this one. At the same time Oakley wouldn’t be the same Oak in SSOL. It goes counter to what he does well and he would hate it.

So 2 different eras, two different systems, 2 different positions, I don’t see a realistic comparision. I think Has has fallen in love with is _avid_ Lee joke, and is just trying to use it whenever possible (beating a dead horse with a spiked mallet) even though it wasn’t particularly clever the first time and is past the age of retirement. Even comedians retire jokes when they get old.

I have one other item of contention. Has stated that Lee is not a hustle player because he does not play good defense. Defense does take effort, but effort alone does not make a good defender.

Lee puts in effort on defense. He does try to help on D but the entire team has so many breakdowns a game you’re exposed more often. Defense is more about technique, reaction speed, timing and anticipation.

Rebounding is definitely more reliant on hustle, thats why it’s called a “hustle stat”. Nash is not a particularly good defender but he’s considered a hustle player.

Lee does hustle. It takes hustle to get that many boards and putbacks when you’r not particularly athletic. He goes for loose balls, sets picks and he gives up his body on defense but at this point and maybe for his entire career he will not have the technique, reaction, anticipation or timing to become an elite defender.

Why do people keep saying Lee is not athletic? He is very athletic.

As for Lee playing out of position, Oakley often guarded the other team’s most talented big man. He saw a lot of time against one of the best centers of all time in Hakeem Olajuwon in the Finals no less.

As for the Celtics being a finesse team? There is nothing finesse about Kendrick Perkins’ game, their starting center or Glen Davis for that matter, their backup and part time starter (last year) at power forward.

Yes, Lee and Oakley play/played in different eras but the physical front court man has not gone out of style in the NBA. Paul Milsap, Kendrick Perkins, Kenyon Martin (hate that guy), Jason Maxiell, Rasheed Wallace etc. still enjoy much success in this league. Even your comment about the league changing toward more of an international game rings hollow, there are tough players coming from the international game also (not many from Europe they’re all pretty soft imo, but that’s for another post) but Argentinian players like Scola, Oberto and Nocioni have all the fundamentals of the international game but are tough as nails.

Lee does not hustle. There is no two ways about it, he just doesn’t. To say that the proof of his being a hustle player is “It takes hustle to get that many boards and putbacks when you’r[e] not particularly athletic” is just wrong. He IS very athletic and always has been (he won the High School slam-dunk contest back in the day), he probably led the Knicks in dunks last year on a team with Al Harrington, Wilson Chandler, Larry Hughes all players who have been or still are high flyers.

“He goes for loose balls” ? He hardly ever dives on the floor or into the crowd to save a ball.

“He gives up his body on defense” ? I can’t remember the last time I saw him take a charge or give a hard foul.

“…at this point and maybe for his entire career he will not have the technique, reaction, anticipation or timing to become an elite defender.” ? You’re ready to make this assertion about a 26 yr old man who just completed his 4th year in the league? Anticipation comes with watching film, knowing where to be and when, seeing your man and the ball, talking on defense (this takes teammates’ help) and technique comes with experience and working at it. A lot defense is learned!

Paul Pierce and Ray Allen were never good defenders and that was for the better part of their careers. Now they are great team defenders and they are much older than _avi_, but the difference is is that they are/were both incredible scorers and scorers many times use the defensive end as their opportunity to rest. What’s Lee’s excuse?

Edit: “A lot about defense is learned!”

It can be taught, obviously _’antoni is not going to be conducting any defensive camps anytime soon, but he can get help in that department in the offseason.

Oakley and Mason weren’t “smaller 5′s”, especially in Mason’s case he was listed at 6’7 but was more like 6’6″ but I get your point, the lines between the different front court positions have definitely blurred over time.

Wait… so you name KendricK Perkins and a guy that Garnett made cry on national television (Glen Davis) and that makes them a tough team?? That was my exact point. If you have one tough guy in this era you’re a tough team. It’s not the same anymore. And it doesn’t ring hollow. They also play zone, with Garnett being the best at playing centerfield help in the zone. FINESSE.

And also I remember Ewing playing the toughest post guy most often, especially late in games when it counted?? Oakley would usually play the other teams best post when Ewing was in foul trouble or when Ewing was on the bench. The Knicks had Ewing, Oakley, Mason, Dudley, Buck Williams, Cummings, X-Man (Not all at the samwe time but still). It didn’t matter because they had so many guys that could guard good post players. David Lee has no help, none. If Oakley could be more aggressive because you have Ewing to erase any mistakes.

Anyway my point still rings true that those teams back in the day had tough players all around. Not just one or two. Even the guards back then were tough SOBs.

I think it’s funny HaS that you mention Rasheed Wallace, he’s not tough, he doesn’t bang and he justs sits outside launching threes and cries about every call. Big Baby also likes to cry. Kenyon is also another crybaby. He also takes alot of plays off. Thats not tough. He’s good on help that’s where his blocks come from. If those are the first names you think of for toughness in today’s league then you made my point for me. It’s completely a finesse league now. Stern wanted attendance improved and he did that by getting rid of physical play and increasing scoring. Thats not even debatable. Look at the numbers pre and post handchecking rules.

My last point is that jumping alone does not make you athletic. You need speed which Lee does not have. You need agility (the ability to move laterally with quickness) which David doesn’t have in spades either. I never made the assertion that he would never be able to play good D. I did say “at this point in his career” and then I added “and maybe for his entire career”. When a girl tells you “maybe” HaS it just means “maybe”

Lastly you’re also trying to compare a guy who was a #9 overall pick in his draft to a guy that was one pick from the 2nd round, #30 overall. I mean Lee wasn’t even the 1st or 2nd pick by his own team. He was the 3rd pick by the Knicks and the 2nd power forward (Frye being the first).

You missed my point. I meant most 4s back then played like small centers where emphasis was placed on rebounding and scoring in the paint. They were bangers down low (like 5′s) rather than spreading the floor and hitting deep jumpers (like 3′s). I never implied that Oakley and Mason were literally small centers.

I said that Big Baby wasn’t a finesse player, I never claimed he was tough. Same goes for Perkins. You still have nothing to refute my point that toughness still exists in the NBA, even in the international players. While they still are fundamentally sound in the way they play.

I mention Rasheed Wallace because while he has a distaste for setting up in the post for a whole game and has fell in love with his 3 point shot, he is still a tough post and help defender. Yea he’s a crybaby (as was that whole Detroit squad imo) but he is/was still one of the best physical defenders.

Guards were definitely tougher in the late 60′s through the early 90′s but the front court hasn’t totally turned to a finesse game and there is still a place for that prototypical power forward.

Lee definitely didn’t have help last season, but even when he wasn’t the definitive starter earlier in his career he still played with little effort on defense. Lee is not the fastest power forward but he is far from the slowest, ironically he might have been the fastest “center” last year lol.

Lee has the athletic ability to guard forwards in the NBA period. No he’s not Michael Jordan in his prime athletic or Amar’e Stoudemire athletic but he is athletic nonetheless. If he worked on his defense and worked hard on his body in the offseason he can develop his lateral quickness and his agility. He can be elusive and agile on offense so there is no reason why he can’t do the same on the other end of the floor.

As far as my interaction with ladies, I’e never had a problem. I can be quite persuasive and irresistible, don’t know what that has to be with my opinion on Lee but whatever, I’m flattered you’ve taken an interest.

Where a player is drafted is relative and has no significance many times in how that player performs once making it into the NBA. If teams had that draft to do over Lee would have gone much higher and the Knicks may have taken him earlier. The list of players drafted late in the 1st or even the 2nd round who have become borderline stars or solid contributors for the duration of a lengthy career is endless.

Again you missed my point.

Lee is not mentioned in this post. This is about Oakley.

Also:

“the blatant mancrush/bromance many fans have with this guy in spite of it all is annoying and it needs to be balanced out with some tough love.”

You’ve WAY overcompensated on this issue and it’s rallying the bromance casanovas. You can’t smother a fire with gasoline

You’re completely right that Lee isn’t mentioned in this post, but I offered some encouragement for Lee as well, I don’t accept that he can’t improve. I want Lee to be the best player he can be and imho he isn’t anywhere there yet.

IF he winds up staying here long term, which at this point I hope he doesn’t (I’d like the team to get some picks in return for him or package him with Jeffries or Curry) I’d like him to improve his defense and truly earn the right to mentioned in the same breath with players like Oakley.

So I guess you missed my point as well.

I don’t think I missed your point, I agreed with you that the front court isn’t what it used to be. However, Anthony Mason was one of the most versatile forwards to play for the Knicks his handle was incredible and although he was a banger he was able to bring the ball up and he was a good passer.

a flabby white guy is not athletic

Are we talking about the same guy? Lee is a marshmallow in that he’s soft, but he’s not flabby, he doesn’t look strong and looks like he needs to hit the weights… hard, but he is deceptively quick on his feet (on offense) and a quick leaper. He IS athletic and if he worked on his game he could improve his athleticism, lateral quickness and reflexes.

What does him being white have to do with anything?