There’s Despair, But No Real Hope?

I disagree. Brandon Jennings was dominant in Summer League (he gave Tyreke Evans, among others, the business when they went toe to toe), and that preseason game vs. Detroit. He’s already shown flashes of his incredible upside. His passing ability is off the charts, and he had more steals in one game the other night, than Toney Douglas did in 2 preseason games combined!

Imagine how good he could be if he were on a team that actually played to his strength, and RAN, and let him create in the open court. That’s exactly what this Knicks team is missing. A PG who can see the floor well and get easy buckets for his teammates. It says alot about your PG play, when Danilo Gallinari is the team’s best passer. It also said alot about how much faith the team has in Duhon when they spent the whoole summer courting other PGs.

I said it back in June, and I’ll say it again, Jennings should’ve been our pick. He would’ve been a perfect fit here.

As for last year, don’t get me started. Knicks fans for years have been complaining ever since Patrick Ewing left how we don’t have a center who can defend the paint, pass out of the double team, and score. That’s Brook Lopez. Lopez is a rising star and probably already a top 5 center in the league. He almost averaged a double-double last year.

As a rookie!

Eric Gordon is yet another player who looks like he might be special. The kid can shoot, defend, and is athletic as hell. I’m going to be watching a lot of Clippers games on NBA League pass this year, mainly because I wanna see him and Blake Griffin grow together.

And Tommy you left out another player that Donnie passed on in last summer’s draft. Anthony Randolph. Talk about another perfect fit at PF. Drafting Randolph would’ve given us the flexibility to either let David Lee go this summer, or find a sign and trade scenario that would’ve either help us shred a bad contract, or maybe get us back a draft pick or a young prospect.

Randolph can block shots, run, score inside and out, and finish strong. Ironically these are all the things we’re HOPING Jordan Hill can LEARN to do. Plus Randolph can handle the ball on the break.

I know it’s early, but so far Donnie Walsh has not impressed with his drafting ability here in NY. I like Toney Douglas, but we could’ve gotten better value at the 29th pick. He projects to be a really good backup in the league. It seems like we keep drafting guys where we’re always saying stuff like, “If he could only learn to shoot”. We’ve said that about Renaldo Balkman, Mardy Collins, and countless other Knicks draft picks.

In this past draft, I would’ve gone with Brandon Jennings at 8, and either Sam Young, Taj Gibson (who’s making a case to be this year’s steal of the draft already in Chicago, and looks light years ahead of Jordan Hill in terms of skill and impact), or Chase Budinger.

You are exactly right that it has been only two preseason games. There are no real conclusions you can make about guys.

But that does not mean that an educated basketball eye cant learn a few things right away from certain players. Im not saying i have this eye, but my eye and my gut is telling me jordan hill will need time to develop, and right now he really has no serious game. his jumpshot is erratic, he looks gawky and a bit tentative. Now, he looks this way. in febuary he might look differently. But i would bet that he does not have a serious impact this year, unless someone gets hurt or traded. he just is not ready yet. i hope he one day is. im not saying we should have drafted someone else, bc i dont know about those other ppl.

With that being said, stephen curry looked freakin awesome last night. he is super quick, and an underrated passer. He is a point guard, and he will be firmly considered as one by the end of the year. if he gets playing time in GS, he will have a very productive year.

he is much more nba ready than hill. and he has a much more polished game. i will never get it out of my head that we missed him by one pick, bc i think he could have really changed this franchise this year. bc he would have been a star here, no doubt in my mind. he would have been a far more attractive future teammate than jordan hill to a lebron or whoever else we target next year.

i dont know about hill enough to say he will or wont be good, right now, he looks like he will need time.

also i would just like to say, what were we thinking not buying a second round pick or trading some cash to the pistons for chase bundinger??? that kid would have been a top 20 pick last year, and he should have been a first round pick this year. how do some teams draft on potential and not give that guy a look. he will be good for the rockets. but i hope he finds his way to the knicks bc he can ball.

i never gave thought 1 to drafting jennings. too much baggage. not what we need at this point.

I’ll take douglas.

I like Chase…but i think it was tough for them to commit to another salary slot past this year after slotting in at 29.

I like Curry a ton too, but not enough to give up what the wizards were asking and with no Mullin, the warriors weren’t dealing with the knicks to move down a slot.

I know what you mean about taj gibson and sam young. but toney douglas looks like a pretty good player, and he can contribute this year. hill will need time, and will probably get out played by gibson, blair and other this year, but we didnt pick him for this year (at least i hope not).

guys like austin daye, earl clarke, and t-will they have actual game and skills that will help them be effective this year. hill is raw and has only been playin ball for like 5 years. he will need time. im not saying he will be good or bad, but we wont know for a year or two.

and when a player plays that many minutes and has the ball that often, you can’t give 5 possessions away and tell me he had an awesome game.

What baggage? Just because he said Ricky Rubio was overrated? That’s baggage? What about Jordan Hill’s baggage? Coming into the draft he had a rep for partying hard and he already had a kid in college.

I’ll take a young stud with a chip on his shoulder like Brandon Jennings, any day.

I here ya.

but how much would it have cost for chase in the second round?
it wouldnt be guarenteed. so would it really be that much more than a joe crawford, or marcus landry?

But jennings is known for being kind of a jerk. and hes not the sharpest tool in the shed. i mean he couldnt get into a D-1 school with his skills??? he must not be very smart

Great article Tommy. Some people are just pre-programmed to think everything we do is wrong, even if the real outcome won’t be final until a long time from now.

People say we really needed a PG of the future, so they are mad we didn’t draft Jennings, simply because he was the next PG available. Why settle for the 5th or 6th PG in a draft, especially one with clear attitude problems, just because we eventually need a new PG.

None of the complaints have any logic to them, they would complain no matter what happened.

It’s funny how to support their arguements they refer to Jennings as if he has already proven he is the next big thing in the PG category, and we somehow f’ed up by not getting him. Where is that coming from? It’s just pre-programmed pessimism… hating for the sake of hating…

We have Toney douglas, who is looking great and has lots of potential, so why the hell would you want sessions? Is he also somehow a proven allstar PG of the future? Not at all.

We will be active this season on the trade market, not necessarily for any huge upgrades, but for 2 reasons: 1) obviously we want to ship JJ and Curry. 2) Draft Picks!

He’s a rookie. Are rookies not allowed to turn the ball over? He’s on his first NBA team, learning a new system, still learning to play with his teammates. I can live with turnovers if he’s dominating in other areas such as getting his teammates easy buckets, and his hawk like anticipation for getting steals. Plus the kid’s got a motor that won’t quit.

Brandon Jennings is ready to make an impact this year, and still has a huge upside. Hill looks like he may be a candidate for the D League, has a low basketball IQ, and looks like he doesn’t belong on an NBA court yet.

Again, how is he “known for being a jerk?” I don’t care if he can’t pass his SAT. Apparently, neither could Derrick Rose and he turned out ok didn’t he?

based on the things that come out of his mouth was one thing, but you really expected Walsh to entrust the PG position to someone who couldn’t even get into college?

Seriously, that is a FAIR knock.

Everyone gets into college if you can ball.

Just sayin’ we aren’t in a position to baby sit knuckleheads. it was the right decision.

when you apply for a job you need a resume.

His resume reads “didn’t play college ball because he couldn’t get in”

that’s a red flag.

Sorry. it’s a biz.

Rose was the first pick and the best guard prospect in years.

bad example.

@ Jeff – I’m dying to know what these “attitude problems” are. Find me a single article of a coach or a player having a “problem” with him at Oak Hill Academy. In Italy, for the most part, he was a model citizen even though he spent most of the year on the bench. In an interview with Chad Ford, one his Italian coaches actually raved about him. Especially his maturity and his work ethic.

He made a comment about Ricky Rubio. Wow.

Allen Iverson and Caron Butler served time in jail before coming to the NBA, but Jennings made a comment about Ricky Rubio being overrated (and I can’t say I disagree with him) and all of a sudden he’s a head case.

Unbelievable.

fair point but i think they were okay with the two first rounders.

Hey we are where we are. We picked who we picked. Not much we can do about it now , right? Danillo will be all right. Douglas will mature and hopefully someone will teach Hill some post skills. Why not Eddy? We’d be wrong to expect championship caliber basketball this year. Just not going to happen. As fans this year we are here just to bear witness of the development of our young Knicks. To see if they will add or subtract to whoever we get in 2010. We are going to get someone right?

No, actually it’s a great example. Derrick Rose was the top PG prospect in years, and had to cheat to pass his SAT. Nobody’s making a big deal about it because it’s after the fact now, and he can ball.

Brandon Jennings is showing the world he can ball and all this stuff about him not passing the SAT will soon be forgotten.

Had jennings went to school and done what rose did then he would have been the first PG taken this year, no?

again, not the best example.

So the fact that Jordan Hill likes to party and drink and is going to be living in a major city like NYC, a city known for it’s night life isn’t a red flag? Or the fact that he had a kid out of wedlock in college, and now he’s going to be a millionaire living in a big city like NY isn’t a red flag?

At the end of the day if you can play, you can play. There are plenty of great athletes who got into college and are dumb as bag full of hammers. Didn’t Dexter Manley go through college while being completely illiterate?

You ever listen to Charles Oakley or Charles Barkley give an interview? Those guys got into college, but you couldn’t tell if you listened to them speak for 5 minutes.

Brandon Jennings is going to be fine.

I hope the Knicks don’t regret passing on him.

Tommy

I disagree with your statement that you take Douglas over Jennings and Sessions. In reality, Douglas has a lower ceiling than Jennings and does not have the resume that Sessions has in the NBA. What at this point would you take him over the other two? Who is to say his offense is to ever catch up? What if Jennings decides to put it all together? He has considerable higher talent/athletic ability level than Douglas and he can be superstar in this league. Sessions has dropped 40 point games in the NBA, but is really known as a good facilitator who can drive, draw defenses to him, and kick out with fairly steady efficiency. Dont you think that at this stage Sessions is the way safer pick between him and Douglas. Listen bottom line is this, Donnie drafted Douglas as a BACKUP point guard, figuring he would be able to get a point guard down the road via free agency or put a trade together for Rubio, as you mentioned which such confidence in your posts. Let us not overvalue Douglas and make him more than he is, there is a reason that Jennings was a top ten pick and there is a reason that even in a bad market for restricted free agents Sessions drew considerable interest and was signed by Minnesota. Douglas, in my eyes, and most likely by every other GM in the league would be picked last if you had a choice of those three players.

Joe

and yours is just PRE-PROGRAMED optimism.no matter how bad the KNICKS really are,you would look at it as if we really had a chance to make the playoffs this year.even if itlooks an awful lot like last years.How can anyone not complain about what they saw friday nighti cant believe that what D’antoni does game after game ,journalists,bloggers,and fans actually call this mess a SYSTEM! run down court,hoist up a three,try to get back on defense! THAT IS A SYSTEM? i watched that all of last year,and it is not even very entertaining.as a hoops fan id much rather watch a team set up on defense,set some picks,box out etc.on offense PASS.and if your outside shot isnt falling,how a bout driving to the hoop?chucking from the 3,has loser written all over it.can D”antoni call a timeout and say “DRIVE TO THE FRGGN BASKET!!!” IF YER SHOT IS NOT FALLIN” NO ONE IS PRE-PROGRAMMED JEFF IF THEY ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT REAL LOUSY BASKETBALL! the amazing part is that YOU are defending professionals playing like shit

A SHILL IS A SHILL IS STILL A SHILL

Tommy is right. The most vocal online Knicks fans have turned out to be the most reactive bunch of whiny babies I’ve ever seen. Preseason is not about pleasing the fans, its for coaches to work out strengths and weaknesses and try out combinations without having to answer to the reductive logic of thousands of bored, negatively biased losers who try to divine the future production of the team and its players whenever they sniffle, fart and cough. You guys are obsessive to a fault and it has become far more pathetic than any labels you try to pin on the Knicks. To undo the damage of a decade of horrible mismanagement in less than 2-3 years is the kind of mandate only selfish brats impose on others without having any of the responsibility to carry the burden of reconstruction themselves.

Nash, Kidd, Wade and others have had games of more than 6 turnovers… So what are you saying Tommy… Not only that but he had more steals than turnovers so he was up 1 in that category… 6steals is impressive for anybody…

It’s the beginning of the 2nd week of preseason, teams are scrimmaging, trying out new players, combos, plays, systems, players are not in game shape, are rusty, don’t know everyone’s tendencies, out of sync, and stats, records and off shooting games mean nothing at this point. I’m not worried about Gallo unless his back hurts, or Sessions. It’s October 11. Why worry now about the opening day starting line up or scores? Teams are shaping up. The Knix will shape up at some point, maybe in months, but they will be a 30-something win team.

DTR

I have nothing bad to say about Douglas, but when your greatest hope for progress is the play of your backup PG, that says a lot about the lack of overall progress you made in the off season. Seriously, it’s impossible for it to be any clearer.

1. This team sucked last year

2. It’s the same team as last year other than two drafted backups (the #8 won’t even crack the lineup until late in the season at best) and a Center that can’t score, pass, or do anything other than block shots and rebound. Of course we needed those things, but when he’s on the court who is off? Lee? Harrington? Chandler? No matter how you slice it, when he’s on we improve in some areas, but are worse in others for a net NEGATIVE!

3. The three elite teams in the conference improved, Washington is healthy, teams like Toronto and Detroit made major moves and could be better, Miami has some nice young pieces that will improve. Who exactly did we improve more than? The Nets? Perhaps, but they have a nice core of young players too. The Bucks? Perhaps, but they were so beat up last year if they stay healthy, they may be better than last year anyway. The Sixers? Maybe, they lost a very good player in Miller, but they also have Brand coming back.

Anyone that is being honest with themselves has to see that this was a dreadful off season. Had we at least moved a bad contract like last year, we could see some long term progress, but this off season was close to a big ZERO. It’s going to take huge upside surprises for this to be anything other than another disastrous season.

I understand what u are saying about Jennings ceiling. But i think it is a fair statement to say some GMs would take douglas over Sessions. Im not saying its a big difference. But right now, i dont think sessoins is all that special, at least not to the point that he is so much more valuable than douglas.

By the way, to be clear, what I am saying has NOTHING to do with the performance in Boston. That just helped verify what I already knew a couple of months ago when we failed to make any moves at all and the talk started about Hill being a project (something all the advanced stat evaluations of him suggested before he was drafted). I am not venting about a couple of pre season performances.

I must say I agree with the Guy even if Tommy defends his point well.

One thing that stood out from the conversation to me was that Tommy said that he was not interested in trading Chandler to move up and get Curry or Rubio. Why not???? Chandler is a 3 in the NBA and so is Gallo. So moving up and trading Chandler would have done 2 things. Open time for gallo at the 3 and given us an impact player this year. Hill is a project and does not do anything for us to land lebron next year. LBJ needs to see some future stars on this team and Hill won’t get any playing time and as much as I like douglas he is not a future star in this league.

As an optimist, you echo my thoughts, Tommy D.

I am realistic, the Knicks aren’t close to being world-beaters. But they are just getting together and haven’t had time to get their legs under them or click. ALL teams are in the same boat, even the Celtics, but at the same rate, they are one of the top 3 teams in the league.

I don’t mind the naysaying, though, because the low expectations will make for this year to be all the more fun when the Knicks shock the world and get the 6th seed in the East.

Yeah, I said it, haha

This is the best comment I’ve seen on this entire blog post. Right on…

Great post Tommy – but there’s something that I really don’t like.

I’m not hating on both lottery picks, but either one of them should have been different, period. I like Gallinari (obviously) and I like Jordan Hill – but the Knicks should have picked either Eric Gordon or Brandon Jennings.

David Lee (4) and Wilson Chandler (3) were our most promising players – but Donnie Walsh found a way to draft two talented prospects who play the same positions! And where would LeBron James play with us? You know the answer!

See :

Toney Douglas-Eric Gordon-Wilson Chandler-David Lee-Jordan Hill

Brandon Jennings-Wilson Chandler-Danilo Gallinari-Al Harrington-David Lee

Both line-ups would be clearly more enticing, I mean you could deal Chandler (in the first scenario) or Harrington (in the second) to let LeBron James take their spots and still have a complete starting line-up. We’re not in that position today!

But I agree with you regarding Ramon Sessions. The Don made the right decision in my opinion.

I do not see how you can compare Sessions to Douglas at this stage. Sessions has played in the NBA, he has started, he has succeeded, ( I mean the guy can drop some points) I mean seriously Knick fans, Douglas has not done anything yet, we cant just prop guys up because they are on our team, you need to prove something first, and we can all agree that Jennings has more ceiling, more talent, and if he puts it all together he can be a All Star Type player.

Some of you forget Tommy D wanted Jrue Holiday who hasn’t done anything, I question his talent evaluation skills they are suspect at best like TD’s jumpshot.

Jennings looks better than Johnny Flynn right now he hawked Ty Evans in Summer league and you look at his stats and it seems every game he has at least 2 or 3 steals he plays defense and hes perfect for this system. How stupid is it to say because of Stephon Marbury you wont draft a certain player.

Co-sign.

Douglas will be a pretty good player – a solid back-up or even a solid starter (hopefully), but Jennings clearly has a higher ceiling. And I don’t even like him.

Only a fan whos been watching losing forever would think the KNicks getting killed by BOston doesnt matter because its the presason as if they can turn it off and on when they want and they said ok lets make the Celtics beat us by 15 tonight. Give me a break!!

I watched some old highlights of Marbury vs. Iverson from back in the day…People say that the one of the worst things in life is wasted talent.. Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLRwglGpbhI

CAN I GET AN AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hey man, I said that already. Anyways it’s true.

I agree… The problem with the draft selections is we didnt solidify a starter at the positions we picked at… And didnt even address a need… We didnt need Gallo, we had numerous sf’s and pf’s at the time and recall DW said he brought in Gallo to play the 4… Lopez would have been our center of the future… Which we still dont have… Gordon would’ve been able to learn behind Jamal until he was traded and would be starting at the 2 now… Same thing with Hill, we needed a pg or a 2 but we picked another pf… Unbelieveable… You cant make this stuff up…

So instead of having a solid starter or future star, we have two question marks in Hill and Gallo… Neither one has a true position at this point and both dont tackle a need… Our biggest needs the last 2years were pg, 2g, and center and we didnt address that in the draft… I do question DW and MD on that…

I like Gallo and I think he has a lot of potential but I also think he may be the type of player who will be susceptible to injury. I wonder if the reluctance to package Chandler in a trade up until this point is really an indication that behind closed the doors the Knicks brass and coaches beleive that Chandler has more potential or that Gallo may never be counted on to be the type of player who plays 80+ games a season.

Brandon Jennings said “Fu#% the Knicks”, so Fu#% Brandon Jennings…If you’re stupid enough to get played by Joe Budden of all people your too stupid and immature to play point guard in NYC. In this Media Market every dumb thing he says will be magnified 1000% let him play in Minny where he can continue to be dumb an nobody will notice. And are you really going to pair Nate “The Great” “Lil Him” Robinson and Jennings in the same backourt?! It will be the first time a fistfight broke out between 2 players on the same team during a game and the coaches head will literally explode.

Douglas is a grit player. He was the 29th pick so stop comparing his talent potential to Jennings. In fairness if Donnie found just a solid, gritty, tough career backup pg to man that role for the Knicks the next 10 years thats a win.

Hill is on the team, but really Donnie had to make that pick because Kahn is an idiot, and it killed the Knicks. I remember watching the draft and wanting to punch Kahn in the face. He thought he was soooo smart and ended up screwing himself, his team, Rubio, Rubio’s cash strapped team, Walsh and the Knicks, and their fans. Donnie just tried to salvage whatever he could and took what was on consensus at the time the best player on the board. Big men traditionally take longer to develop, and just like Randolph has the potential to get better as he gets NBA experience.

I apoligize I meant to say Milwaukee, for Jennings, not Minny…but really they’re both the same aren’t they? lol

I apoligize I meant to say Milwaukee, for Jennings, not Minny…but really they’re both the same aren’t they? lol

It is too early to say that a player is a bust or mistakes have been clearly made in the draft yet but you can speculate because thats what fans do… If you dont care at all, then you are not a fan, you watch the game and have nothing emotionally invested in it… I want the Knicks to win, I’m tired of seeing them underachieve every year… Sorry if some of you dont get that… But I will say that now is too early to label players bust or bums… Gallo has a year to show us something, by next year there will be no excuses… Hill has 2yrs as well… Look at Roy Hibbert, he looked like a bum last year but he is killing this pre-season… Channing Frye was a much better player than Bynum his rookie year but the tables have turned and Channing is trying to find his game now… Mind you I think Channing will be just fine on the Suns, but its hard to predict what the future holds for a player… There are alot of factors that play into it… Its difficult for fans to be patient but we must, but it doesnt mean we cant analyze and question…

How do you know he wouldn’t have been the 1st point guard taken? The only pure point guard taken ahead of him that played stateside was who, Johnny Flynn?

If he had (cheated on his SAT and gotten into a D-1 school) played in the NCAA I’m not sure he wouldn’t have been the 1st guard. No one got to see him play much once he went overseas, so he became a question mark which is why he fell so far (10th). He went to a foreign country, had to learn a new language, play with grown men and work hard to get onto the floor on a professional team. You are disregarding a lot just to make your point for Douglas.

Toney could end up being a winner and become a better all around player than Brandon Jennings, anything is possible. But he’s older (24) than Brandon (20) and he is clearly not as a gifted a passer.

Most players who are able to make those flashy, thread the needle passes usually have games where they turn the ball over a lot, Jason Kidd and Steve Nash always have a couple bad turnovers a game plus a few games where they come in bunches.

Ricky Rubio would have had the same growing pains, sometimes teammates have to get used to playing with a guy who will find you at any given moment.

I agree we should be able to analyze every move but at the same time the analysis should be fair. For instance Douglas doesn’t deserve to have himself compared to a top 10 pick in the draft. Of course their potential is different. If Douglas outplays his draft position then let’s talk about comparing him to Jennings.

Looking at steals to determine if somebody plays defense is one of the worst things you can do in terms of these “evaluation skills” you talk about. Jrue Holiday was and is a project; Everybody knew that. Judging him off of whatever preseason or SL games he has played isn’t fair.

I personally don’t think they underachieved. Considering the Layden and Isiah era’s with the teams lack of overall talent the players on the court have acheived exactly where they should have. The front office, Dolan, Layden and Thomas underacheived.

The jury is still out on Dantoni and Walsh. Considering Wash hasn’t resigned Eddy Curry to a 6yr 90m contract for losing 40lbs they are already doing better than Isiah Thomas did.

BUT THEY ARE PLAYING IN THE PRE-SEASON JUST LIKE THEY PLAYED ALL OF LAST YEAR……RUN DOWN COURT……..BRICK A THREE…..RUN BACK….

nobody compared TD with Jennings. The point is being made that the knicks needed a pg to back-up duhon and eventually take over for him. Jennings was that guy not Hill.We had Lee, Al “I gets buckets” Harrington, Gallo and even Chandler that can play PF so you can make a case that you don’t need another PF that is not even ready to play this year and maybe even next year.

Alot of people were critical of Kahn for drafting many PGs when he could have filled other spots but walsh to a degree did the same.

Don’t get me wrong, I still stand 100% behind the man and this team. Maybe he is stocking talent to trade later but it all remains to be seen.

Just sayin’ we aren’t in a position to baby sit knuckleheads. it was the right decision.

Tommy-

How can you say this is the right decision? When it’s convenient for people to prove their point people rush to judgement.

The doubters could be wrong andJordan Hill could turn out to be better than Amar’e Stoudemire although I doubt it. Amar’e came out of High School and showed flashes right away, Hill had 3 years of College ball and looks lost.

Toney Douglas could turn out to be Deron WIlliams, although I doubt it Douglas is a little longer in the tooth than other rookies.

I’m just not understanding how you can automatically say, “it was the right decision”? Brandon Jennings could end up being a star in this league and battling for the right to be called a top 5 point guard in this league.

Last I checked, you didn’t need to be a chemical engineer to play basketball. Basketball IQ is not the same as overall IQ, if it were Jordan Hill as a player having spent 3 years in college wouldn’t look like a lost puppy on defense AND offense!

Is it a red flag, that’s arguable. What isn’t arguable is this IS a business and Brandon Jennings would have put posteriors in seats. He is a potential star and I just don’t see that in Hill or Douglas, I see Douglas becoming a fan favorite and a guy teammates love playing and going to with. Jennings could become a household name with his style of play and it would have been especially so on BROADWAY playing in _’antoni’s offense!

J_Starks3 Please re-read the posts, Douglas is being compared to Jennings all over the place, including Tommy who is arguing for his preference of having Douglas over Jennings and others who are saying that Jennings is a better player and has more potential than Douglas.

Isiah did a horrible job with trades and signings but considering the 3 best players on this team are still Isiah draft picks we cant say the cupboard was bare for Donnie, like it was for Isiah… Isiah may have screwed us in many ways but Donnie and MD have yet to bring a player that is better than the 3 guys he drafted… They need to be challenged on that because Isiah’s picks werent even above 20…

“…love playing and going to [war] with.”

Well if the Knicks are actually trying to use Jedi Mind Tricks on LeBron and get him to see some hope and talent that he would like to play with here. Then wouldn’t it make more sense to get players that can show skills THIS year?

Also J-Starks you don”t draft a PG in the top 10 to be your backup point guard. If the Knicks had drafted Rubio or Flynn they would be starting. They took Douglas at 29 knowing the guy is a back-up who brings some things to the table the team lacks (defense, toughness). Comparing a guy who isa top 10 pick, expected point guard of the future, with a #29 pick is not fair analysis, thats all I’m saying.

Amen.

Why wouldn’t they play Nate and Jennings at the same time? They are already talking about playing Nate and Douglas at the same time and Douglas and Jennings are the same height! Not to mention this is the coach who insists on playing Mr. Lee at Center.

I didn’t say the cupboard was bare. Yes those 3 draft picks are the best players on the team but at the same time Isaih’s other moves have made it nearly impossible to bring in better players. DOnnie spent last year trying to undo Isiah by tradin Crawford and Zach Randolph. He still has to undo Eddy Curry who is outdoing himself in proving to be the most crippling acquisition in basketball history.

So, yes he had a few good draft pick (not great,but good). But everything else Isiah did put the franchise back years. Eddy Curry still may prove to be the one that keeps this team achieving it’s 2010 plan. The fact that a move for an over-weight lazy center who never plays, has a diagnosed heart problem and an un-insured contract is still hurting the franchise makes Isiah the worst thing to happen in the history of the Knicks, considering he should have learned from the Jerome James fiasco.

The fact that “fans” can think that Donnie came into an easily fixable situation is beyond me. Donnie has managed to not make any crippling moves, already 1000 times better than Thomas. Just the fact that there is real hope again after a decade of ineptitude makes me willing to give Walsh the benefit of the doubt. Like I siad he didn’t sign Curry to a contract extension for losing 40lbs which is something Thomas probably would have done.

You missed the point….playing an unselfish, defensive minded player with Nate is not the same as playing Jennings with Robinson. Jennings and Robinson are both ball dominant who play with their emotions.

Dantoni already loses it because Nate does what he wants and strays from the team concept. WIth Jennings it would be 2 players who do the same thing.

It’s also sad that there are Knicks fans that are crying that we didn;t get Jennings. Brandon said “Fu$% the Knicks”…exact quote. Back in the day if a player said that he was dead to us…we were praying for an Oakley elbow to that player in the nose….have Knick fans gotten soft?

Things are getting clearer now (considering the fact that our lottery pick is not even in D’Antoni’s rotation which is RIDICULOUS) :

1. If Gallinari doesn’t play particularly well this season (at least 15 ppg, 4 rpg, 3 apg)

2. If Donnie Walsh doesn’t find a way to dump Jeffries or Curry to attract LeBron James

Then Donnie Walsh will definitely be the Knicks’ gravedigger from my POV. The Knicks need more than one miracle to get it done.

It’s 1 OR 2 – not 1 and 2.

Brandon Jennings said “Fu$% the Knicks” because he actually wanted to play here! He didn’t say it about any other team did he? 7 other teams passed on him, but he was upset that the Knicks didn’t pick him.

We’ve all used colorful language in private amongst friends and people who pay sports probably more than the average person. So I wasn’t that turned off by the offhand remark, which he thought was being said in private to a friend.

Many players have used the fact that they were passed over or fell farther than they thought they would in the draft as motivation, Paul Pierce, Caron Butler, Gilbert Arenas etc. that wouldn’t be bad company if he can get there.

As far as revenge for him making that remark I would look at it differently if it were someone who had been in the league for awhile and not a player speaking purely off emotion who felt he got snubbed by a team he would have loved playing for.

As far as the fans getting soft hasn’t the team gotten soft already? Who is going to give him an elbow to the nose? The starting center and resident tough guy _avi_? LOL I made myself laugh just typing that one.

#1 is on Donnie

#2 is a result of having to undo what Isiah did

Curry needs to go….just sent home, Hoenstly If you ask him, I think Lebron would rather hang out with Braylon Edwards over Eddy Curry at this point.

Trading Crawford and Randolph didn’t prove to be as hard as expected as they’ve both been traded again since then. All of Isaiah’s “crippling” moves come off the books in ONE year.

I knew that was coming…I feel like Charlie Brown..”Good Grief!”

At the same time he said it…it doesn”t matter the reason…if someone called my wife a slut I wouldn’t excuse him because he really wanted to bang her and she didn’t let him.

I know – but he’ll have to trade Jeffries or Curry in order to have enough space to attract LeBron James (enough space to sign a significant player like Joe Johnson) IF Gallinari doesn’t play well. Everything revolves around Gallinari – so no2 is on DW as well.

And I’d hardly call Jennings a selfish player at this point. He is a pure point guard and he enjoys setting up his teammates. That doesn’t equal selfish, let’s see how his career unfolds. none of us know how it will turn out. Any scout or GM can tell you that with the high risk of drafting Jennings came equally, if not higher, reward.

I’d still kick his ass if he called my wife a slut though.

Isiah trading those draft picks killed us more than the acquisitions of Eddy and Jerome… That really set us back… Because in all honesty he traded away his best attribute… He picks way better than he trades…

Yes, they were easier to trade, which is why Curry is still here. Also it’s was actually harder when Donnie traded them since there was a longer amount of time left on their contracts. Players become easier to trade the less amount of time left on their deal.

Also if Chris Wallace wasn’t trying to outdo Isiah as the worst GM in any sport that deal never gets done. If Dunleavy wasn’t also trying to beat both Isiah and Wallace, Zach isn’t traded twice.

Considering how Jeffries looks in camp I’m not worried about the ability to trade him. He is tradeable. But there is a big difference in the type of player the Knicks can secure if they trade Curry vs Jeffries.

I think Options should also include trading Gallinari for a proven star player if a team is interested.

It’s all of those things combined. Yeah he drafted well in the 20′s so wow what if we kept our lottery picks?

It was trading away draft picks, signing guys like James, trading for guys like Curry. The team actually paid more money to guys sitting than playing.

So the fact that he drafted well is voided by the fact that he traded away the teams best picks for horrible players. So you traded away what you did the best for what you did the worst? Sounds like Isiah.

What set the tone for the Thomas era for me was the year the Knicks actually had a winning record into the season and Thomas traded Keith VanHorn who was having a career year playing pick and roll with Marbury just because Marbury hated VanHorn. The team traded him for Tim “fugazy” Thomas. That team could have actually finished with a winning record and maybe won a playoff game. A real GM would have said “you play with him, both of you together is our best shot”.

Everyone on this roster should be an option for a star player…but it has to be a star player, not an overwight, overrated, self important bum.

Curry’s contract runs through 2011, that would be TWO years. This year 09/10 is not the last year of his contract. He has an 11m player option for 10/11.

My post didn’t call Jennings selfish. I said Douglas was unselfish and then I said that Jennings and Nate were ball dominant…i guess people read what they want though.

I would too, but he didn’t call mine or your wife a slut lol. He WANTED to play here! He was upset and he said exactly what any one of us would have said in private in all honesty.

Think about it if you were up for a promotion and the boss picked some other dude who you thought you were better than, you would be pissed and in private you would be saying man that asshole boss didn’t know what he was doing, F*** that job! But you would go right back to work the next day and say yes Mr. Boss or if you found another gig somewhere you would keep that chip on your worth elsewhere.

I meant ONE year past the precious year of 2010. With the drafting of admitted projects how will the Knicks look like a serious potential suitor to someone like LeBron? Walshie should be drafting talent that can contribute as soon as possible!! The closer we get to summer of 2010 it is looking less and less likely.

I have nothing bad to say about Douglas, but when your greatest hope for progress is the play of your backup PG, that says a lot about the lack of overall progress you made in the off season. Seriously, it’s impossible for it to be any clearer.

Well, I think the greatest hope for progress is the play of Danilo Gallinari. I also am excited about progress from Al Harrington and Nate Robinson (I think Lee will have another awesome season, but maybe not that much different then last year). So the play of our backup PG is the 4th greatest hope for progress on the team. Which says a lot about the lack of overall progress the Knicks made in the off season.

And yeah, a rookie with very well could step right in and play 15 min a night is a good thing to have.

I hated Keith Van Horn also so I can’t say I was that disappointed seeing him go lol. Your point is not totally lost on me, but remember what Isaiah was working with at the time. To look back at the roster he inherited hurts my eyes. He did at least make an attempt to bring talent in. Not to mention he isn’t the only one who had to sign off on those trades. Isaiah’s best trait is ability to evaluate talent, he’s done it everywhere, Camby, McGrady, Stoudemire, Ariza, Lee, Robinson etc..

What he needs is a partner who can get the chemistry part right. That’s where he failed miserably. He also failed by aligning himself with Marbury at the expense of the team, he should have taken a tougher stance with the talented guard (I think he just related to the guard being that he was just as talented in his day and played the same position.

As far as Wallace trying to outdo Isaiah as abad GM there will always be bad trades and lopsided trades, they happen all the time. The fact that there were 2 other GM’s ready to take on those 2 contracts is what it is. Zach and Jamal are 2 talented guys and they have more than a few years of good basketball left are they overpaid, yes but they can contribute and as long as they do they can be traded.

The reason, Jeffries and Curry have been harder to trade is because they have been injured, but no one can predict injury. Grant Hill played all 82 games last year after not having played anything close to a full season since 97/98 at 36 years old! If Jeffries had never been injured no one would be looking at him as a leper on the team. Same could be said for Curry and both would have value and therefore would have been easy to get rid of whenever they got ready to unload them.

I read exactly what you wrote, not what I wanted to read.

When you say:
“….playing an unselfish, defensive minded player with Nate is not the same as playing Jennings with Robinson.”
Followed by:
“Jennings and Robinson are both ball dominant who play with their emotions.”, seems to imply that Jennings is selfish. If I misunderstood, you could see why couldn’t you?

Nate and Brandon are hardly the same player. Brandon is a pure point guard, while Nate is more of a combo guard. Douglas is probably closer to a combo guard (although he hasn’t played like it, with his inability to score at this level so far.) than a pure point guard. That’s not to say that he or even Nate can’t learn to play the position (they’re less than 2 yrs apart in age and Nate has 4 years of NBA experience on him) if they can they will both lengthen their careers in the league.

So how is it relevant that Brandon Jennings wasn’t the first PG off the board? The Knicks passed on him and he’s playing better than both the guys we picked this year. What does that have to do with him looking like a better pick than both our rookies?

The only reason I brought up Rose was because you’re making a big deal about this whole SAT thing. When the guy you’re defending had to cheat to pass the SAT and he seemed to be doing just fine in the NBA.

What did Ricky Rubio score on his SATs?

All very true… But Van Horn was balling at the time… Isiah really messed up then, not only did he trade him but he traded Doleac as well and as much as he didnt like Keith that squad was best suited for Steph’s talents… So was Kurt Thomas but both Steph and Isiah were too blind to see it…

“…chip on you [shoulder and prove your] worth elsewhere.”

Bronze this comment and hang it somewhere.

good post BOB
same thing i say why doesn’t he call a timeout an tell them take it to the hoop.
it is what it is.
it’ s 3pt contest against your team mates….

people tend to over look a guy due to the media giving him bad rep
man i would of luved if they drafted JENNINGS altho i wanted CURRY…

HaS…how old are you? Seriously, because if you’re under or around 21 then I can’t expect you to understand the knicks not taking Jennings.

It made no sense that’s why they didn’t.

end of story.

if that’s what you’ll think it will take.

Me, I’ll settle for the opportunity to sit at a table with offers and unlimited funds following this season and thereafter.

Don’t be shortsighted.

I can’t expect you, if you’ve only been following me for just over a year, to have any clue about what these eyes have called but it starts with Eli and Wil Chandler.

But sure, there are plenty of ones I got wrong which pretty much makes my point, so thanks!

Why are you on these boards? What about it makes you happy? I understand being frustrated and reluctant to have hope, but you post on everything. You’re not just negative, you’re proactively negative.

Seems like a really strange way to spend your time.

yea no prob once he is proven a bust for a 6th overall pick,,

I’m way beyond 21, but nice try to dismiss everything I said with the “you’re too young to understand” argument. My point is there is no way to say it is the right or wrong decision just yet, the kid’s just turning 20.

He’s obviously a talented pure point guard, which the Knicks desperately needed and have need since the mid 80′s (yea I was alive then lol) Charlie Ward was the last great homegrown point guard (That’s just sad, and I loved Charlie!) after Mark Jax and Strickland of course!

Listen I like Toney Douglas, I even like his unofficial nickname “Ghostface” but just because the Knicks have him already doesn’t mean he’s the best thing since sliced bread. Talent-wise (from the point guard position of course) he doesn’t hold a candle to Brandon Jennings’ court vision or passing ability, of course he’s light years ahead of him in his defensive ability (which I love) but he’s just learning to play the point. Wherever Brandon plays he exudes point guard, no coach in their right mind would play him anywhere else.

“end of story.”? Not so much.

Playing with a nice looking ’09 squad would be a nice offer to bring to that table. The Knicks can’t offer him more money and I think league rules forbid Nike from sitting at that table.

Rubio would not have started and who’s to say you would have started Flynn right away ahead of Duhon? As much as I dislike Duhon’s game (and that he’s from Duke) he has the experience edge over anyone the Knicks would’ve have brought in and made it possible for the organization to bring a point along slowly.

If you don’t bring in a top 10 draft pick at PG to be a backup then why do you bring in a top pick at 8 PF to be a 3rd stringer (at best)?

Well I haven’t followed you even that long, but I can say you have the tendency to put the blinders on. I get the feeling that If the Knicks had picked up Joe Schmoe with the 29th pick you would be saying “I’d pick Schmoe”, hey you’re a fan and I respect that, but to say someone is the wrong pick before they’ve even played an NBA game is shortsighted. That goes for Jordan Hill, Toney Douglas, Danilo Galinari, Brandon Jennings, Sam Bowie or anyone!

The Knicks never should have traded Camby AND Nene Hilario for Antonio McDyess, they should have taken a chance on Amar’e Stoudemire, they should have risked it with Andrew Bynum etc. Hindsight is 20/20 of course, but when a team enters the draft they either draft for need or they take the best talent available.

The Knicks arguably haven’t done that in the last 2 drafts. There’s still no definitive “PG of the future”, there is no C (I wonder if _’antoni even wants one, I personally think he is looking for a 7 foot SF.) and there is still no SG of the future on the team (I’d like to keep Nate as a spark-plug off the bench and Chandler is an experiment at that position.).

I guess you are of the “In Donnie We Trust” contingent, but there is nothing wrong with disagreeing with the organization or management. I’m still waiting to see you write something critical about either of the two. No shots.

Gotta love bob “go knicks”!

My point is there is no way to say it is the right or wrong decision just yet, the kid’s just turning 20.

is the same argument I have for all draft picks…

so thanks.

and quite honestly the fact that you are “way”
older than 21 surprises me because you should understand that the organization may have made more of a image decision, but maybe these qualified professionals just simply didn’t like him as much as you…

directly or indirectly Nike is a part of most all conversations but anyway…i think talent is important and I think there is talent here. I just don’t see where jennings is an off the charts, head and shoulders player that would have any impact on LBJ.

Do we make the playoffs with jennings? Dunno.
Do we make the playoffs with sessions? Dunno.
Do we have a better chance with either? Dunno.
Do we make the playoffs without either? Dunno.

actually no bob, oh wait….ACTUALLY NO BOB. THEY ARE PLAYING MUCH BETTER DEFENSIVELY.

I think structure in terms of building makes sense but not always.

It goes back to fans thinking they have a clue about knowing who or how to draft.

it’s a crapshoot.

Most players in the top 10 have talent, but I know it may have made more sense to bolster the 2 and 5 through the draft.

I loved eric gordon. had him higher than mayo, but coming off the marbury and crawford ERAs the team needed to get away from the shoot-first 1 and Brook Lopez fits in the fan’s ideal of a Pat Riley or JVG system, but he’s not a perfect fit for this one.

as far as Hill, the upside is just too good.

not true at all. obviously I would have knocked the jennings pick, but i was pretty sure there wasn’t a snowball’s chance in hell that they would take him. I was right.

I wanted holiday but had jordan hill 3rd behind griffin and rubio.

If I had him 15 i would have questioned it.

the mcdyess trade was a steal but he ran into bad luck…period.

Layden thought milos and mcdyess could be the next stockton and malone. Layden was wrong but it wasn’t out of total incompetence.

Did YOU like the eddy curry deal at the time? Did YOU like outbidding yourself for Jamal Crawford? Did YOU like channing frye?

I didn’t like any of those moves.

actually wanted Rubio and curry and flynn before jennings…um, so did the NBA execs who also passed on brandon.

yeah, why hate on KVH?

he wasn’t great but he was playing well here.

Just curious bc he gave fans no reason to hate him.

I don’t mind Douglas(he was picked at 29 afterall). Jordan Hill-ah well see. Top targets were all gone at 8. I don’t expect him to be a star but a solid contributor would be nice.

One of the worst Knicks mistakes in the draftwas not taking Caron Butler in 2002. Also, in the state of dispair the Knicks (were in) they should have drafted Bynum.

That brings me to this year overall….I just can’t see this team winning more than 35(tops) games the way it’s constituted.

Hope I’m wrong. Bad enough I had to suffer through the Mets I hope the Knicks will at least excite and rejuvenate the fanbase.

Winning fixes everything, you’ve been watching sports long enough to know that. The fans will make excuses for a player on their team almost all the time. If Jennings had been drafted here and he played the way he did in Summer League, no one would be talking about his “image” or his “attitude” they’d be putting the famous NY hype machine behind the kid and be touting the potential Galinari/Jennings duo for years to come.

Well when you make a comment like “…it was the right decision (passing on Jennings)” you didn’t seem like you “Dunno.” Right now it doesn’t seem like Hill was the right selection, he looks like a project and maybe a year or two away. I don’t trust _’antoni with “projects” I think he will languish on the bench andhis lack of confidence doesn’t bode well for him contributing later in the year either.

i’m changing your name to “king of generalizations”

the organization thinks it’s the right decision. me? I knew they were going to make it.

Upside can get coaches and GM’s fired. Brook Lopez probably should have been selected, the 1 and the 5 are the hardest positions to fill. I understand that he doesn’t “fit” _’antoni’s “system” but I heard from various articles that this man would be capable of coaching more than one style of play. I guess that was the NY media hype machine.

He was just soft as baby poo.

laughable and incorrect.

talk about media hype.

He was slow and nonathletic but not the softest player who ever wore this jersey.

actually in all fairness Crawford was much softer.

Thinking that Milos Vujanic and Antonio McDyess were going to be the next Stockton and Malone has to at least border on incompetence lol.

There is no way you can possibly believe that Mark Jackson, Camby AND the 7th overall pick (Nene Hilario) in the draft for an injury prone Antonio McDyess was a STEAL (unless it was the Denver who was guilty of grand theft)! If you do, you win, I give up. I can’t argue with you on that.

Jrue Holiday I didn’t see enough of to say I was in love with him.

I did like Crawford, but no not for that price.

I liked Channing Frye too, everyone did, he had a good rookie campaign. He lacked confidence and still does, which eerily reminds me of Jordan Hill’s demeanor.

Most people regarded the Curry deal as a steal at the time also, I personally wouldn’t have thrown in that 2nd UNPROTECTED 1st rounder. It was viewed as the Knicks had the Bulls between a rock and a hard place and were forced to part with him.

I liked Flynn and Curry also but at the 10th spot yeah I would have taken a long hard look at Jennings. I would have given the 20 yr old a psychological evaluation if that’s what it took for me to feel confident in the pick.

Just because other GMs passed on him doesn’t make it the right decision, that will be proven in the years to come. 2 GMs passed on Michael Jordan, 4 GMs passed on Dwayne Wade, Steve Nash was picked FIFTEENTH (I don’t even like Nash but he helps prove my point) so to say because some GMs passed on him proves nothing.

I wasn’t a fan of Crawfor_’s defense either haha! But he had ice in his veins and he definitely didn’t lack the confidence it took to take (and make) the big shot on perhaps the largest stage in the NBA.

When Van Horn cam out of college I thought he would be a monster and take those game winners, but he translated that penchant for taking and making that shot to the next level. But hey I though the same thing about John Wallace and we both know how hat turned out.

So let me get this straight, you think the bulls actually thought twice about NOT dealing Curry? LOL.

sounds like you were okay with giving up 1st round draft picks (maybe not the second one) for Curry, who had a heart problem for crying out loud, but think that the McDyess trade was one-sided?

and you hated keith van horn…

Help me out here.

Sounds like you were an Isiah apologist. and if that’s the case, let’s just leave it at that shall we?

I don’t think I’m generalizing at all. My points are clear. If you’d like me to clarify something for you let me know.

i don’t know what oakley or barkley, forwards, have anything to do with jennings.

NY hype machine?

then you use summer league as a witness?

yeah, that could use some clarification.

This is a reply to Tommy’s answer :

Donnie Walsh clearly has an eye for talent, his resume speaks for itself. Both picks were solid talent-wise and I like both players.

But I can’t understand his vision (or lack thereof)!

You know, I can understand why he didn’t want to draft Brooke Lopez (I wasn’t a fan neither) – and even though Anthony Randolph was my favorite prospect (by far) it was still 50/50 between him and Gallinari considering the fact that AR was not the type of player experts would call a “safe pick” (I disagree though). But Walsh had the opportunity to draft a “low risk high reward” SUPERSTAR shooting guard (come on Tommy, Eric Gordon is a 2) – he didn’t need to pick another forward since Jamal Crawford’s days with the Knicks were over!

I still have mixed feelings about the 2008 draft – but the Knicks shouldn’t trade Gallinari. His trade value is down and nobody would ever trade a young stud for him – we don’t need old/expensive players.

Peace – Good thread.

gordon is in the davis, francis. marbury mold with a better IQ, i believe.

maybe like a smaller version of Wade, who to me, is the best player on the floor but without a true position.

EG is a hybrid one, undersized at the 2 and that’s no knock, just not what the team needed at the time.

that said you and me are on the same page with gordon/gallo and you made me a Randolph believer.

peace brotha!

dude, he was about 2 for 40 in those situations.

more haS hype!

Do you even have an opinion thats contrary to what this current regime is spewing… You talk like what you feel is fact and you are in a different category or are privy to some information about the future that we arent… The draft is not as much of a crap shoot as you suggest,there is a season why some teams do better every year than others… They arent just picking names out of hats and getting lucky… No GM is 100% because no one is 100% perfect in life but some are alot better at this than others… And to say that you know what 1 player would or could not do in this system after already stating the draft is a crap shoot says to me that you just have this opinion when its convenient…. 1 MD didnt pick any of the old players on his Phx team how the hell does he know that Brook Lopez couldnt play in his system… 2 He runs the pick and roll well, can shoot well, can pass well, can play defense well, and understands the game way better than Darko… But some how you are convinced he couldnt play well in this system… 3 Wouldnt he be better than any center we have now, in everything… So why wouldnt he fit? 4 Would Tim Duncan not fit in this system because Lopez has similar skills…

MD did not hand pick any of the guys he had on Phx he didnt have the power… So he had no idea whether Joe Johnson, Barbosa, Diaw, A’mare or Nash would flourish in his system, but they did… But if you know anything you should know that since he started winning they never drafted a player that was good enough to play on their team… Why is that? Because MD doesnt have any idea who can and cant play in his system until they play in it… He wanted Roberson instead of Von Wafer after watching practices… He didnt even think Rondo could help them… So dont tell me who could play in his system because Mike doesnt even know… You can dismiss the draft as a crap shoot if you want but it only gives incompetence an excuse… And when this is a person’s job, I dont wanna hear excuses… I’m just saying…

I remember you saying you can find an Eric Gordon in every draft ha… Like great shooters at the 2 grow on trees, and your stance was he was a tweener… Yeah well that tweener would have helped us alot… We cant afford to drop the ball, if we plan on getting Lebron… And talking up Gallo like he’s the next coming of Dirk wont help us either… Especially if we picked him and passed up on an All-Star caliber center for him… And worst we let our biggest 2010 rival get him… So now they could pair two All-Star caliber players with Lebron when we have none…. Nice…

And all those exec’s could be wrong and what would that mean 5yrs from now

It’s all good

The NY hype machine is the media in this town, that will make a story out of absolutely nothing just to satisfy sports thirsty fans (including myself). We’ve all been the victim of them overhyping players/teams only to be thoroughly disappointed once the season starts.

I’m not putting more weight into the Summer League than is warranted. I’m just giving you a scenario. The way everything good Galinari does is magnified in the media the same would be true if Jennings or any other rookie who looked good in practice, Summer League or preseason games.

I pretty much knew they weren’t going to take him either, but that doesn’t make it the right or wrong decision. If you judge based strictly on need, they made the wrong decision. If you judge based on the SL and early preseason, they made the wrong decision. If you judge in a year or two it may turn out to be the right decision.

The McDyess deal was one sided and it wasn’t even close.

I wasn’t in favor of giving up those draft picks especially not lottery protected ones if they twisted my arm I’d have given them the one 1st rounder (Please remember this is all in the assumption we don’t know that the 23 yr old Curry turns into the stay-puff marshmallow man from Ghostbusters) but I feel like the Knicks as they have for as long as I’ve followed them outbid themselves. The Knicks were convinced that their medical team could safely say he was fit to play in spite of signs of a heart condition.

I’m not the only one who disliked Keith Van Horn, most people remember him as soft and cracking under pressure except apparently you Tommy.

I’m not an Isaiah apologist, I’m just tired of people using his name to justify Walshie as the best GM ever, he’s gone. Let it go. Not to mention Donnie’s draft history leaves a lot to be desired, which is never mentioned. Just because I’m not ready to proclaim “In Donnie We Trust” like some of the others who’ve been brain-Walshed, doesn’t mean I’m pining for Isaiah or any other former GM to come back to the Knicks.

KVH would be 18 for 20 and then miss the big shot when the game was on the line.

three weeks into the season ,you’ll be posting the same stuff that i am now

stop looking at my posts as negative and start looking at them as the truth.as a KNICKS fan for a long time,i do want them to play well.but they dont,and there really isnt anything positive to write.I didnt realize that this blog was for happy KNICKS fans only,I am so sorry for offending your delicate sensibilities,but Walsh should figure a better way of building a basketball team then to wait 2 years and then throw boatloads of cash at the best players.

but when they are not hitting shots,its the most awful brand of basketball to watch.when the threes aint fallin ,drive to the hoop ….i mean HOOP!

amen!

I think if we end up with the best player since Michael Jordan on our team, you will change your mind and think it was a good idea. And even if that doesn’t work, having that much cap room to spend on a New York sports team is a pretty great back up plan. Given the mess we were in, this was the right way to do it.

You say Donnie should have figured out a better way. What better way? How does the team he inherited get turned into a title contender? By keeping Crawford and Randolph?

Also, it’s not that I’m against writing negative things or telling the truth. We all know the knicks aren’t going to the playoffs, but to say unequivocally that a bunch of unproven players are better than a bunch of other unproven players is absurd. It’s your opinion and you’re welcome to it, but don’t say you’re not being negative, you’re just being truthful because none of us have the facts yet.

great post here by DD.

if you have a problem with management then include a solution.

Don’t just complain.

you don’t like the system? You want to fire D;Antoni? then who would you hire?

I said he couldn’t get into college which would lead me to believe that it was more than just SAT related.

You’re the one who’s blowing it way out of proportion.

No one ever said players are angels, but clearly jennings has some things going on.

I mean if he’s so good then why did he fall?

BC of his mouth?

Geez ITK where do I start?

Do you even have an opinion thats contrary to what this current regime is spewing…yes, plenty.

The draft is not as much of a crap shoot as you suggest,there is a season why some teams do better every year than others… They arent just picking names out of hats and getting lucky… No GM is 100% because no one is 100% perfect in life but some are alot better at this than others…what is that “reason?” Name me the best 3 drafters of the last 2 decades and we’ll go from there.

I remember you saying you can find an Eric Gordon in every draft ha… Like great shooters at the 2 grow on trees, and your stance was he was a tweener… Yeah well that tweener would have helped us alot…maybe but look into AAU ball and there are 5 or 6 that come to the NCAA ready to contribute every year. I mean Jonny flynn or Tyreke or Curry or Harden may all have Gordon’s impact, which is to say some good moments scoring the ball and a part of a heck of a bunch of losses.

throw brook lopez in there too.

You’re anointing players too quickly because you want to prove nay-sayers or hopeless apologists wrong. I’m in the middle.

I never said Jennings wasn’t good I just said the organization didn’t like him enough to draft him.

Oh and this one…

… So dont tell me who could play in his system because Mike doesnt even know… You can dismiss the draft as a crap shoot if you want but it only gives incompetence an excuse… And when this is a person’s job, I dont wanna hear excuses… I’m just saying…

I think mike has a pretty good idea that his system isn’t based around 15 seconds then dumping the ball into the post. Lopez is a decent pick and roll big but makes his money on the brick.

mainly because there are a rarity of true centers in this league.

But make no mistake, mike knows it’s the players who win in this league and i’d hope you’d feel the same way.

this is what i can’t stand. hindsight is always 20-20.

at the time camby was hurt, Jackson was old and nene was a question mark.

McDyess was Amare’ before Amare, but he had a knee deal.

A serious one no doubt, but remember his injury had NOTHING to do with the last one. it was really a bad break. McDyess, remember, has been a solid NBA big ever since being traded.

So if donnie trades Duhon, Hill and Chandler to the Suns for Amare tomorrow, you going to tell me that it’s a bad trade?

I applaud Layden for the effort, but it ended up being a bad trade.

Yeah, great post DinnerDog, what was I thinking? I forgot about that secret contract the Knicks have with LeBron.

Mark my words, I said it here first:

If Michael _’antoni doesn’t significantly alter his “system” he will never win a championship in the NBA. I’ll even go further the length and say he will never win as much as three games in any one Finals series.

Since you asked who I would hire in place of _’antoni (which I haven’t officially called for his firing as of yet, I’d just like him to hire a defensive guru/coordinator) I will tell you.

I would have liked to see them hire Avery Johnson, his record is ridiculous, he is a natural leader, he played as an extension of the coach on the floor (winning a championship) under one of the better coaches who is very highly regarded amongst his peers, (future HOF’er) to ever work in the NBA (who has won multiple rings). His mantra starts with defense and that is what it takes to win. If Dirk Nowitzki had a heart he would have won the Championship the year they lost to Miami.

For the record, I never complain for the sake of complaining nor do I “hate” for the sake of “hating”.

and that’s not defending the deal.

he was impressive during that preseason.

But d’antoni would have won a title if not for a cheating ref and amare getting suspended.

they were the best team in the league that year and were robbed.

Top 3 drafters in, the last 2 decades… Gregg Pop, Jerry West, and Kevin Pritchard probably…

Yes there are always tweeners who come out every year but not many dominate college in their freshman year like Gordon did…

But Lopez is entirely different, like you said good bigmen only come around once in awhile, and to pass up one may prove to be horrible decision down the line… I think MD would do anything to get a Tim Duncan type player but he thought like many other ignorant draft experts that Lopez was a stiff bigman who lacked fluidity… But what is so great about Darko, why does he fit the system… He isnt a great athlete, he isnt extremely quick and agile… He cant hit an open jumper… But MD loves him… Why him and not Lopez?

You are right though it is too early to say Gallo is a bust, but it isnt too ealry to say Lopez isnt… But your agrument that we didnt need another shoot 1st guard can be combated by saying we didnt need another pf when we picked Gallo… And thats exactly what Walsh said he would be… At the time we had Zach, Lee, Rose, Chandler, and Jared… Who could all play the pf… And then we pick a pf again this year… I have a problem with that…

But, MD was willing to throw Shaq, the block clogger in his system… Lopez is alot more versatile than just being a big that just “makes his money on the brick”… See I watched almost every game he played his last year in college so I’m not just speaking from a hindsight is 20/20 stand point…

One of the teams biggest problem is that we rely on the 3 and cant dump the ball inside when the shoots arent falling… To get easy baskets or get guys in foul trouble…
Much like what we saw against the Celtics… Sometimes coaches should just coach the players they are given instead having a say in roster decisions… JVG was a prime example of that… MD is starting to resemble him in that regard…

that’s incorrect, kerr traded for shaq and MDT left that summer.

he wanted nothing to do with shaq…

I find myself agreeing with like 99% of your posts, HaS

No he would MIGHT have made it to the Finals, there’s no way to kno if he would have won the title.

what im saying is,the KNICKS coulda hired anyone to do nothing til all the contracts ran out,and as far as Dantonis “system”. do you really think this is interesting basketball? its like watching that attari video game “PONG” just bank n forth back n forth..and just for info,i was hoping that the KNICKS would have gone back to their defensive ways by hiring TOM THIBIDEAU as the head coach when this all happened.i for one ,dont mind watching defense when watching hoops.im sure when in phoenix,d’antonis offense was fun to watch,but here ,when they are off or “cold”it sucks(which is more off than on these days)there TOM,theres my solutions now does anyone give a rats……?

I can’t condone trading a former 2nd overall pick (Marcus Camby) and a 7th overall pick, (which could have been Amar’e Stoudemire, Nene Hilario or Caron Butler) Mark Jackson aside, for a player who was coming off 2 injury hit seasons (Antonio McDyess).

That pick was way too much, I would have been willing to do it without the 7th overall pick maybe. Injuries can’t be predicted, but one injured player for another seems like a fair trade without giving up a possible stud out of the draft. I doubt anyone else other than the Knicks, who are notoriously infamous for outbidding themselves, was offering anything near of a sweetheart deal as that for McDyess.

and @dinner dog….what proven and unproven players are you talking about?i dont rember writing bout players in my post,just Mikes system

Thanks man, I rarely am agreed with in the threads here. lol

“Donnie Walsh clearly has an eye for talent, his resume speaks for itself.” How many great or good players has Donnie Walsh drafted in his career? Name them.

Suns win that year, no doubt about it…

I’ve heard more than enough hype from you that has nothing to do with the media.

Yeah but camby was wearing thin here, and Dice was still a franchise-type.

Again, he was awesome that preseason.

We’ll never know, but like the suns with DT I have a feeling that McDyess would have been 20 and 10 easy and with Spree and H20 that would have been some group.

Miller, Chuck, and Schrempf were the highlights, but Erick Dampier, Austin Croshere, and Jonathan Bender were some pretty low-lights. Oh yeah Granger was a hell of a pick too I must say.

Great conversation everybody…

Donnie’s eye for talent kept the pacers at a high playoff level for almost 2 decades.

Obviously, haS let’s not pretend that we don’t know Walsh’s career from a trade standpoint and a draft standpoint. It’s documented.

He drafted players that added to his team’s long term success and rebuilt the roster on the fly.

I mean knick fans have seen plenty of miller, smits and dale davis over the years i think.

I’d like to see you come up with EVERY GM’s draft list and show me one that’s flawless.

and explain to me how much better a guy like, say, George Hill makes, say, the Nets for example.

Point being, the players who have been drafted here over the last 2 drafts are good prospects. Shoot, some players drafted as high as hill or gallo never even play and some become hall of famers.

there isn’t one GM who’s record is even close to perfect so let’s not praise certain teams who draft well because it’s easier to drop draft picks into a winning culture a la the spurs.

HaS…YOU ARE RELENTLESS!

just cuz boston missed shots….doesnt mean the KNICKS r playin good DEE

let’s be fair…

Croshere was really solid for them off the bench and in the playoffs in 2000 and earned a contract. that was donnie’s mistake the contract, not the pick.

Dampier is still playing.

Bender was bad.

its funny as much as i gripe,i picked,and still believe,in GALLO..not jordan hill though.first i wanted S.CURRY.thenRUBIO,after that any of those PGs would do “JENNINGS,HOLLIDAY ETC

KVH WAS JELLING

IF you were me,you would know.could it have been all those losses between 1975and 1986,could it have been how lousy our GMs were in the late 80′still all of the 90s trading a number 1 draft pick for i have to go……..real emergency be back with more tedious stuff tommorrow

OK Tommy, sure. No doubt about it they win the title, and they sweep too. I just got back from an alternate reality in my time machine and you were right.

*Gets out mop for sarcasm*

Who have I “hyped”? More than you have hyped anyone?

Dampier still “playing” is arguable.

The players drafted the past two years have been good prospects, but who isn’t in the “good prospect” category from the 1st round? At least in the drafting organization’s eyes.

It’s still too early to say anything definite about any of them. I’m just wondering aloud if they were the right picks in lieu of the fact that they didn’t fill the team’s glaring needs and they weren’t exactly ready to contribute immediately to show off for a potential LeBron coup the way some other picks taken after them have been.

Well Has I’d mention :

- Jermaine O’Neal for Dale Davis
- Detlef Schrempf for Herb Williams
- Ron Artest, Ron Mercer and Brad Miller for Jalen Rose and Travis Best
- Danny Granger 17th pick
- Al Harrington 25th pick
- Dale Davis 13th pick
- Antonio Davis 45th pick
- Rik Smits 2nd pick
- Reggie Miller 11th pick

And I was on the Jonathan Bender bandwagon.

Anyways, you hit the nail on the head Has. Like I said, Danilo Gallinari and Jordan Hill were solid picks talent-wise. But they did not fill the team’s needs. Hopefully they’ll be good enough to prove that Eric Gordon and Brandon Jennings were not necessary – but they’ll have to do it quickly because 2010 is coming.

again, let me get this straight.

Lebron is leaning towards the Nets right now over the knicks because Lopez is better than Gallinari?

He fell because he was playing in Italy and he didn’t get many, if any, minutes early on. If he had played in the States where he would be have been thoroughly scouted and have gotten a lion’s share of minutes he wouldn’t have gone 10th. Period.

Hey why stop there? With a couple of injuries to other teams the Knicks can get home court in the 1st round!!

**Gets out mop for the sarcasm dripping from that statement.**

Ok I’m reading what I wrote and I don’t see that anywhere. I never said he was leaning toward signing with the Nets or the Knicks.

I think his first choice has to be the Cavaliers. What I’m saying is why come to a 30 win team who can’t even draft for need or take the best talent available? You have to do one or the other.

If he’s going to leave the Cavs, then why come to a team in the same general area of another team (the Nets) that has better roster and financial situation than the Knicks?

Can I borrow your “time machine?”

why are you allowed to be steadfast in your assessments but not anyone else?

That was the consensus opinion many had of Jennings, if he had been able to come straight out of High School he would have probably been a lottery pick. He was that highly touted. High School American

When he went to Italy he barely played and people forgot about him. It wasn’t until workouts that he got back on teams’ radars.

Read up on him.

http://www.nba.com/draft2009/prospects/159.html

“…touted as a McDonald’s High School All-American.”

I can reluctantly go along with that, he did look good in preseason (there’s that word again lol) but I still felt, and time has proven me right, that the Knicks gave up too much.

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