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Tommy Dee says: The funny thing for me is that Eddie Johnson was a 6′8 straight sharpshooter and was the centerpiece in a deal to Seattle for Xavier McDaniel when McDaniel was an elite player. He was not known for his defense, but played almost 20 years in the ABA and NBA because he could flat stroke it. If he played for D’Antoni , say at the 4, he would have seen a ton of open looks. Johnson netted 24ppg in Seattle back in 90-91. I’m shocked that he doesn’t see the value of the offense with the right pieces. Is that asking a lot?
Via HoopsHype.com:
“The Knicks have dug a serious hole in terms of perception. The only way out would be to change the type of basketball they play and prove to James and Wade that they have solid players to surround them in a system conducive to their abilities.
Maybe there would be a chance, but that depends on the Knicks other stubborn problem.
Mike D’Antoni is a very good coach, but his stubbornness in sticking with a system that is weak without Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Deron Williams or (oops!) Brandon Jennings will lead to failure. He needs to change and he has yet to give in to the thought. He has to recognize that LeBron and Wade like to lope and then explode. They don’t play fast constantly and they would struggle playing with guys who jack up three-point shots with 20 seconds on the shot clock. They like to facilitate and control the action and not being allowed to do so would cause major problems.
D’Antoni has a piece in Eddy Curry that could allow him to prove he can integrate a controlled offense.
Even the Phoenix Suns, who are back to the run-and-gun style, are only winning because they are not trying to run for the full 48 minutes. They are incorporating a good half-court offense, rebounding and focusing more on defense.”
No. The whole point of the system is that you have the players that can execute it effectively, hence the stress on free agency. And the Suns are focusing on D, yet giving up 106 points a game? Ok. The Suns are simply using D’Antoni’s system without D’Antoni, because they have the same core of players that had success with it when D’Antoni was there. The Suns aren’t winning anything this year.
I understand the argument that the Knicks shoot way too many threes, but the notion that D’antoni should change his system because Chris Duhon is running it is absurd. Is there any system out there that fits Chris Duhon? Plus, the Knicks don’t even run, so D’Antoni has altered his system.
Part of the intrigue of playing in New York, apart from the glamour of the greatest city in the world and it being the mecca of basketball, is Mike D’Antoni himself. He’s a great coach who’s invented a system that’s proven that, with the right players, you can win. We know Lebron wants defense, but you’re telling me that Mo Williams is a good defender? Lebron makes players better.
Some say this system can’t win a championship but with Lebron James, Gallo, say Manu Ginobli and another free agent in 2011, you still think that?
Any system can win a championship with the right players. It’s more about the players than the system.
The suns were very close to winning, and proved they could beat the solid half-court, twin-tower teams in the playoffs.
There is no system that caters to these players. Its stupid to act as though we have good talent and aren’t utilizing them correctly. We have a bunch of expiring contracts who either suck or were banished from their former teams because of their selfish style of play (or over-paid, over-weight players). We have Chris Duhon, the hands down worst starting PG in the league, running the point. There is no system in which these players could produce more wins. In fact, running the floor and chucking up threes is the only way we can get lucky enough to win games at this point. If Al hadn’t taken a plethera of ill-advised threes (that fell), we would never have been in the celtics game to begin with.
D’Antoni is stubborn in one respect; playing duhon. Until duhon sits, i will not be happy with D’Antoni.
As peso would call him DU-DU-HON!!! LMAO
the suns wasn’t in the finals so they wasn’t close.
some key players got suspended for the suns but still they won’t close to winning it.
danni boy isn’t a good enuff coach cuz he doesn’t demand good play from players on both ends.
all he demands is to shoot 3’s.
goodluck with danni boy as coach for the big 1..
Ugh…come on DTG.
they win it that year….
sheesh
sorry TOMMY i forgot..
LOL
I agree 100%, Jeff.
This is a hodgepodge team in limbo-land. D’A is trying to figure out how to coach them, but why should he wrack his brain? The roster sux. The last 2 games they played solid D — that’s the best news we could hope for. But no matter how well he gets them to play, I don’t expect this roster to win more than 15 games, and so be it. Next year the roster will be far different. All I hope for now is the benching of Duhon, lots more minutes for Douglas and Hill, better play from N8 and Gallo, and some good moves by Walsh.
Your argument is weak if your saying that the Suns are not winning it this year even though they are running 7SOL and with the same core of players that made D’antoni the star coach he is today. Then why would Lebron want to play with Dantoni if even Nash and Amare (2 of the best players in the NBA) can’t win a championship with this system.
Bottom line, if Lebron comes to NY it’s because he wants to not because of 7SOL.
not what I’m saying at all. I’m saying the Suns aren’t going anywhere because they don’t defend, despite what Eddie Johnson’s trying to say.
Also never said Lebron would come here for 7SOL, but D’Antoni revolutionized the league with that system. And believe me, Lebron knows that he could come close to averaging a triple double in this system.
Bottom line, if Lebron comes to NY it’s because he wants to not because of 7SOL.
exactly…
danni boy as a recuiter is overrated.
money is the main recruiter..
I think D’antoni tends to be stubborn sometimes, but only because he really believes in his system. I believe in it too, but he should make some minor adjustments to accommodate our terrible roster. Despite the terrible roster, he also needs to expand the rotation a little bit, even if only keep legs fresh.
“I understand the argument that the Knicks shoot way too many threes, but the notion that D’antoni should change his system because Chris Duhon is running it is absurd. Is there any system out there that fits Chris Duhon?”
I think the Knicks shoot too many 3’s because a lot of the time Harrington shoots 3’s. Harrington needs to take it to the hole more often. Marion and Diaw didn’t rely on the 3-ball like Al does. This leaves Lee as our only interior scoring threat. Hopefully Curry’s resurgence will change that, but regardless Al needs to penetrate more, period. The opposing defense collapses on him and he can score/get to the line, kickout or wait for a backdoor cut, all of which are better options than a half-assed crossover followed by a fadeaway 3.
Also, good point about Duhon. Duhon was nothing before D’antoni. Not saying that Duhon is anything good now, but at least Duhon has shown some flashes of solid PG work under MD. I’m not sure he’d even be in the league right now if we never picked him up.
and why can’t the knicks bring in a proven defensive mind to help on the bench, by the way?
Is that so out of the question?
That’s too much to ask Tommy Dee there only the one of the worst defensive teams in the league.
I have been hoping for better assistant coaches for 2 years who can teach D. Why do Herb Williams, D’A’s brother and the other guys have jobs? It’s a mystery to me what they are needed for. They sleep on the bench and no one ever calls a Knick out for matador D.
I’d like them to get any and all of these defensive coaches: Paul Silas, Bob Lanier, Dave Cowens, Ewing, Mahorn, Oak, Clyde.
D’ANTONI is way too stubborn to bring in a defensive guy
_’antoni is too stubborn to hire a defensive assistant coach/coordinator.
Oh Trade for TMac even if you have to give up Wilson, Nate, Lee or but make sure Curry is in the Deal.
any deal with curry will have to include a young player..
Dantoni’s system will work if there are good players passing and shooting. Instead there are mediocre and selfish players shooting and not passing. Also, lets call a square a square, D is not a priority for this guy, never has been.
ofcourse his system will work
but i don’t think it’s a champ system..
When coach D was in PHX his biggest nemesis was the Spurs. They couldn’t beat the Spurs because the Spurs would control tempo and force the Suns to defend for 24 seconds and then they would defend so PHX couldn’t run 7sol. When teams have bigs who can post and command doubles and they play D (Ala our Knicks in the 90’s) they will beat this finesse system in a series 9 times outta 10. I think this system is useful in spurts but to win championships in the NBA you need guy who 1.Commands a double team 2. Defend for 48 minutes and 3. Have role players who know their role and execute them. So if Eddie Johnson believes that the Suns can win then he needs to be examined and Coach D will never win it all with his system unless he just has a bomb squad with Bron, D Wade and somebody else!
come on man… the spurs did beat up on a ton of teams. Not just phx.
They beat up on some strong defensive teams during their run, does that mean defense cant win?
No it doesn’t mean that “defense can’t win” it means that defense CAN/DOES win! The Spurs were among the best defensive teams in the league! Them winning in no way disproves the fact that defense wins championships.
I think these guys are finally getting that Defense comes from a will to want it.
Sure it Defense takes a system to run it and I agree Tommy Dee that a defensive coach brought in (Send Herb Packing) would work and you might just see that this summer when/if we get 2 max players here.
But the reason for all this question starts and ends with getting a REAL floor general or developing one from within (a la T-Doug). Remember Nash wasn’t “MVP Nash” until he made it to Phoenix under Mike D’s system.
I ‘m hoping Mike will realize this soon. I mean come on…he’s standing behind his players is fine but Du-Du? He’s an expiring and is not cutting it no more..
His best game all year against the Nets 38 mins 4 for 9, 8 assists 11 points (oooh he’s back our Steve Nash!)
Then he follows up with Boston 46 mins 1 for 6, 6 assists, 3 points? 46 minutes?
The only thing good this guys does for this system is keeps his dribble….other than that ya’ll know what he is…
I would love to see a sign that says “NO MORE DU-DU” in the stands. Right behind Anthony Mason’s seat for all to see…
People forget about the summer of 2011. Say the Knicks miss out on lebron and bring in Bosh and Rudy Gay.
2011 Jeffries and Curry come off the books, you have a draft pick, and you have a team here to market to free agents.
and native NYer Carmelo Anthony as a FA.
lol.
more b-more than anything.lol.
Im retarded. It was a busy day. He did go to school in NY at least and has kept up a presence in Syracuse.
Wouldn’t it be wiser to fill out your roster with proven shooters than a ‘max’ and an overpaid player if we’re going to be waiting for 2011 as the Year Of Our Savior?
Raymond Felton
Raja Bell
Danilo Gallinari
Wilson Chandler
Eddy Curry
Toney Douglas
Kyle Korver
Joe Alexander
Jason Kapono
Jordan Hill
Jared Jeffries
*Sherron Collins?
*Luke Harangody
Do we get under the cap with that roster? Maybe not, but I think it’s close. A lot closer than what just signing those two guys will leave you left with for a second team. If you’re going to get back to running, you need shooters to sub in. Maybe Bosh and a bunch of shooters will work, but Gay seems to be too much. Why bother locking up the space?
If the Knix can draft and/or trade for a great center and power forward, D’A’s system, whatever the hell that is, will be hailed as brilliant. If Walsh can’t get lucky and get a great C and PF, D’A will will be labeled a bum. You can’t have a good defensive team without players who have the skill and will to play it. And you can’t teach most of today’s players how to play good D — at least, it just doesn’t happen these days. The players entering the NBA the last 2 decades are mostly terrible at playing D. They are good at styling on offense and have little concept of what defensive pride means. Look as a Harrington — yeah, he can score 20 – 30, but his man usually scores 20 – 30 on him. He’s a net zero player.
Off topic but with Batum and Outlaw out for a majority of the season, the Blazers look like they need a 3 to compete. Anyone think we could send them Chandler with Jeffries? Maybe Chandler for Fernandez?
Chandler for Fernandez, straight up? No way. Jeffries/Chandler for Blake/Fernandez/Outlaw…
thee problems with D’Antoni. well four really..
The First is that his system is overly reliant on a high level point guard to run everything and keep it humming. IM not sure the PG needs to be on the level of a Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Deron Williams or (oops!) Brandon Jennings .. but the system needs a specific TYPE of PG to be successful.
The second issue is MDA’s unwillingness to adapt his philosophies to the players around him. Now I know this team as currently constructed isnt going anywhere regardless but SOME level of flexibility within his system is necessary if he is to be successful going forward. He required specific skill sets at every position and if he doesnt have that he should be able to roll with it. It is debatable whether or not MDA ever does this. Suffice to say it shouldnt be debatable.
The third and most agregious issue I have with MDA is his penchant for running a short rotation. PLayers get tired. You CAN NOT be successful today with a 8 or even 9 man rotation every nite. you need at least 9 players contributing minutes on a consistent basis .. arguably 10 players should see considerable time.
Lastly, the coach needs to focus more on defensive principles and start preaching that as a major theme. This “we missed shots” stuff is so simpleton it makes no sense.
Other than that he’s fine in dealing with the players day to day and is a classic “players coach” . Ill give him until after 2010 season before i grab my torch and pitchfork.
Bingo! Well stated and I agree wholeheartedly.
The calls for D’antoni’s firing are ridiculous, but at the same time we must keep him on his toes and not let him get too comfortable. Elite coach? Prob not. Terrible coach? Hardly.
well… yeah, your arguments make sense… except that they dont…
your first point isnt a knock but rather an observation. Or to say it more simply… duh. We all know Duhon is not the answer… and I know everyones obsession with Jennings, but he is not a pg in the mold of they other guys you mention.
your second point is actually happening. People are quick to say he needs to adapt to the players around him… but I think he is trying to. They dont really run a ssol system right now… so wouldnt that be adapting? I think many of you confuse adapting with changing. But the real point is… he should not change his system very much at all! This season is really about Gallo, Chandler, TD, and maybe Lee or Nate… they should be learning the actual SSOL system so they can continue to play it in the future when there is a proper PG to run it.
I dont agree to your third point. These guys know the deal, its a coach that demands you to be in shape. Get in shape. Get in great shape. They should be able to handle this. Although, I suspect Hill and TD to get more burn as they progress… I mean… this is prob your best gripe, and its not really that big a thing.
Coach has been pushing stronger D since the preseason. Having players that suck at D makes it hard to play good team D. I feel like DW has been focusing on bringing in guys that play better D (TD, and possibly Hill) along with having Chandler… I hope one of the guys he brings us in FA is a strong Defender… But his game plan is centered around offense. So he pushes that. Whatever, most of you feel that only 1 kind of basketball can win a championship so not much is gonna change your mind.
“Some say this system can’t win a championship but with Lebron James, Gallo, say Manu Ginobli and another free agent in 2011, you still think that?”
I don’t know why every argument STARTS with assuming that LeBron IS coming. I really don’t. The main reason is the Cavs are worse, but where? Not in the standings. Their roster isn’t any better than the Knicks’ roster, OK and? I would just rather not here all this speculation and especially not the assumptions for another year. If he’s going to sign here then he’ll be here soon enough.
@ gbaked, _’antoni is NOT adapting his philosophies to the players he has. “Not really running the 7SOL offense” is not adapting. Either he should run a totally new offense, a simplified “non-gimmick” offense or focus on the defensive side of the ball in an effort to score easy fast break points that way.
As far as the rotation or usage of his bench, _’antoni has definitely shown an unwillingness to expand his bench. This is great during a playoff schedule, but throughout a regular season consisting of 82 games, regardless of physical condition, players get worn down. That’s why teams that have a seed locked up will rest their players heading into the playoffs in the last few games. This includes players known for their exceptional conditioning, LeBron, Kobe etc. and they don’t even run a 7SOL “speedball” offense all year. So it is possible to burn players out and it is only counterproductive to your own success if you don’t put trust in your players at the further end of the bench, during the regular season especially, because you never know when you’ll need one of those guys to step up (due to injury or foul trouble) and that experience can be priceless.
“Coach has been pushing stronger D since the preseason.”
Talking about playing better defense and actually giving the team a defensive concept or a philosophy are two different things. The team has shown an ability to defend in stretches. However, the switching, zone and going under picks are cop-outs it breeds no accountability and leads to blown assignments missed rotations etc. Until the coach hands out minutes according to the effort put forth on defense AND he actually puts a defensive game plan in place the team will continue to struggle to maintain solid defense for 48 mins. There are enough guys on this team that are/were good defenders at some point in their career, capable of playing good defense or can put the effort into being a strong defender (this means every player on the roster).
“But his game plan is centered around offense. So he pushes that. Whatever, most of you feel that only 1 kind of basketball can win a championship so not much is gonna change your mind.”
This isn’t just the thought or “belief” of a few posters here it is a known fact. There has never been an average or defensive to win a championship, probably none has ever even made the Finals. Last year the last 4 teams playing to get into the Finals (Denver, LA, Cleveland and Orlando) were the top 4 defensive teams in the league last year if I’m not mistaken, but in any case they weren’t just OK defensively they were all great defensively. Defense wins Championships. Period.
Edit:
There has never been an average or below average defensive team to win a championship,
i bet RAMON SESSIONS COULD HAVE RUN IT BEAUTIFULLY
Ramon Sessions would have been a good man to run it
Realist here to give some realist thoughts and blueprints for the future.
First – stop with the talk about T-Mac/Houston/ and Eddy Curry – not happening – this is not a video game. Curry will not have any value until next season when he becomes an expiring contract.
Without moving either Jefferies or Curry before this summer (which looks bleak b/c – here’s the question no one can convincingly answer – Donnie has made clearing cap space for 2010 his no.1 priority – so if he had a deal in the works – one would think it would have happened already – he’s not just waiting around for the perfect deal – b/c he sure was not waiting on the perfect deal for Crawford and Randolph – he unloaded those two the first instance the Clippers and Warrior bought) – so without moving either Jefferies or Curry – we have only room for one max contract – especially if the CAP is between 50-53 million which given this economy it probably will be. So the Knicks probably get Joe Johnson – that’s it – see ya.
Now Joe Johnson gets plugged into – wait for it – wait for it – PG. That’s right – he played some in Phoenix and nows Mike D’s system.
We also take the hit and humiliation and bitterness of not having our 2010 draft pick – oh well – we’ve been down this road before – hopefully the pick turns into another Tyrus Thomas for the Jazz.
So we go into 2010-11 season with a lineup comprised of the following:
Johnson, PG
Douglas, SG/PG
Chandler, SF
Gallo, F
Hill, C/F
Curry, C
Jefferies, F/C
and then some other guys
Maybe Harrington comes back on reduced contract – who knows.
Here is where we can start really planning for the future – b/c I think it is during the 2011-12 season where the NBA happens for us.
Curry and Jefferies can either be now traded during the 2010-11 season b/c of their expiring contracts or we wait till after that season and look for FAs (doubt Dwight Howard – maybe Melo – maybe see if Chris Paul is being dangled more – heard rumors he might wind up a Laker down the road).
Now I do not think 2010-11 we are a playoff team – so back in the lottery. Maybe we trade Curry/and or Jefferies’ expiring contracts for a good potential lottery team. What I would strive for is potentially look at the 2011 lottery – b/c it could be loaded again w/ the likes of Harrison Barnes, maybe Xavier Henry stays his sophmore season at Kansas (not many KU freshman leave – especially under Bill Self), also Ohio State has another huge big man coming up next year who could be a high draft pick. who knows maybe Ed Davis stays three years in college.
Just some thoughts for a Monday night – but this talk about Houston and T-Mac – people keep saying it makes too much sense – YEAH FOR THE KNICKS BUT NOT THE ROCKETS – they do not want to be stuck with the contract next year – they are free of McGrady’s deal – all 22 million of it next year – they do not want to be free of just the 11 million by then taking on Eddy’s contract.
PEACE.
I’m sure teams will want to see more of Curry before a deal is done. If Walsh did hear “good things” from around the league on Curry, we should see action around the deadline if he continues to improve.