Because ESPN has to Make Lists…

“This one, too, may be a bit premature. We are only one-third of the way into the season, and big men, especially those like Hill, take longer to develop. However, Hill can’t find any minutes on a lottery team, while Jennings has been terrific in the early going. Given Jennings’ strong play, it seems like a stretch to say that the Knicks drafted the right guy.”

I think this is a sufficient disclaimer.

“Having Jennings on the roster could’ve made a pretty impressive case. Hill? Not so much…”

Hard to argue with this either.

DAntoni can be a stubborn person, DAntoni will bury a player and mess up his psyche if they are not menatlly tough. If he is so down on him have DW send him to the DLeague to work on things. Its a wash we shoulda had Jennings, DW dropped the ball on that but we must deal with what we have and not the couldas and the wouldas.

Gallo is proving to be more than a one trick pony and I like how he tries to play defense, no matador guy here, I’d like for him to talk to Dirk and ask him how he improved his game after each season.

if big men take longer to develop how do we explain the 6 foot ten swede Detroit took in the second round?

I think he’ll end up a bust and thought so right after they drafted him but this is far from decided yet. What I don’t like about Hill is that he’s a project player who had played three years of college basketball. He improved over his career greatly, but the fact that he needs time to develop but is also older than many players who are at the same stage as him, which I find unappealing. I think Ford did a good job with the draft, but it’s too soon to call him one of the worst busts of the decade yet, he needs an opportunity before this can happen at least.

If we had drafted Jennings he wouldn’t be putting up the same numbers here since we all know about D’antoni’s love affair with Duhon.

IMO, Jennings probably would only be playing slightly more than what Douglas play now.

So to say that Jennings would be balling like he is in Milwaukee is wrong.

It really doesn’t matter what the media thinks about drafting Hill over Jennings, they are not the ones making the personnel decisions for the teams

With all that said, Donnie admittedly blew it in drafting a player that D’antoni is clearly not enamored with and not drafting a PG whether it was Jennings, Lawson or Holliday that this system desperately requires.

.

Young players spend most of their time developing in practice. While in game situations help players develop as well, sending Hill to the D-League would stunt his development because he wouldn’t be able to work on his game with NBA coaches.

The biggest problem with this list is that certain players absolutely belong (like Darko over Wade / Melo / Bosh), but a player like Hill does not. If you want to talk about draft busts for the Knicks in recent years, how about:

Mike Sweetney (9th overall) over David West (one of the best players in the country)

Channing Frye over Andrew Bynum and Danny Granger

Renaldo Balkman over Rondo, Kyle Lowry, and Jordan Farmar

The Knicks’ PR department is doing an admirable job.

He was a great pick. I thought so the first time I saw him play in the summer league. That kid has a career in the NBA, especially when he bulks up and fills out more….

By the way, I truly though Joe Alexander was going to be a player. He was athletic, had a great post-up game and could block shots.

If it wasn’t for our logjam of Forwards, I would say it would be worth giving him a shot next season.

The D-League isn’t in Siberia.

He wouldn’t be out of the reach of “NBA coaches”.

The organization could have a trainer shadow him in the D-League if they’re so worried about his “development”.

He can be called up on off days or even to get minutes when they become “available”.

Players have played in the D-League (day game) and the NBA (night game) in the same day.

ESPN is terrible. They are a bunch of cliche` bandwagonners.

Tell the coach that when you see him.

I meant Jerebko from Detroit.

How about DeJuan Wagner over Amare, Nene, Butler…… Why is that Cavaliers folly not on the list?

And how is Marvin Williams a draft bust?

Wrong decision, yes. Bust, no.

LOL classic. And so sad at the same time.

Tommy, I know you are protected of Walsh and D’Antoni from any sort of criticism but how can you have an issue with the article regarding the Knicks. Jennings is having a stellar rookie campaign and a couple of years younger than Hill who is stuck to the bench behind a guy that everyone wanted out of here and a guy that is back from a 3 year retirement. The head coach told Marbury and anyone who would listen that he wanted to play young guys like Gallo and Chandler who can help. If you take the coach at his word than that means that he doesn’t think Hill can help at all. Ford did have a disclaimer that it could be premature but from an outsider perspective it looks like Hill is far from ready to contribute let alone help attract big time free agents like Jennings.

Like Tommy himself says all the time, people see/hear what they want to see/hear.

No shots.

Eh. I don’t know if I buy that since (I’m assuming, of course) LeBron would be the 1 in this offense. Now, Tyreke Evans along side LBJ? That’s another story.

none taken, as always.

I guess some people NEED to find something to complain about….

right?

Jury is still way out on Hill…obviously.

LeBron defies position.

He would benefit greatly from playing with a true point guard and I’m sure he would kill for the opportunity to at least have the option/flexibility.

Jennings/Lebron could have been a great tandem. Period.

No one is even in the courtroom.

maybe you should go to a practice watch him and then tell me he’s not an NBA player…maybe you should see him after practice working hard to improve and tell me he’s not an NBA player.

He’s not a player, right now, who can help them win…and there is nothing really all that wrong with that. As it stands he’s on the roster next year…and he’s 6’11 with a jump shot and athleticism.

Based on what I see and hear I know he’s a part of the team’s future and that take, which is fact, falls on deaf negative ears.

now, will they think about trading him if the right deal comes along? Of course…

but I wouldn’t expect that to happen in the least…

“maybe you should go to a practice watch him and then tell me he’s not an NBA player…maybe you should see him after practice working hard to improve and tell me he’s not an NBA player.”

Never said he wasn’t.

How is wanting him to develop and get some in-game experience in the D-League being negative? If anything I’m a proponent of his development.

Not sure how 5-10 (1st half) mins, even just as a small reward for hustling or “working hard to improve” in practice, hurts his/the team’s cause.

It’s outrageously unfair to call Hill one of the worst draft picks of the DECADE, give me a break. He’s only played 80 minutes, and has looked decent per minute – they’re just judging based on NOT seeing him, rather than on what they’ve seen.

Yes, everyone on earth would pick Jennings over Hill now that we’ve seen what Jennings can do. So? I’d pick him over Thabeet too, and he was the #2, and hasn’t shown much either.

It’s crazy and wrong to label any player from this year’s draft a bust, let alone one of the worst busts of the decade. Personally I believe Hill will be in the league for years, and will not be a bust. I doubt he will become a star, but most draft picks do not.

Wow is all I have to say to this. ESPN continues to be a joke when it comes to basketball coverage of the Knicks, just really bad and dumb. Everyone gets it, the Knicks should have drafted Jennings over Hill. But where has it been proven that Hill is a bust already. He is a raw big man who needs time and patience to develop. Its very difficult to judge rookies accurately even when they are getting a ton of playing time, as evidenced by Jenning’s struggles since his amazing start. Will he still be an amazing player? Sure, I think so, but you hear very few people talking about him as a sure-fire hall of famer perennial allstar anymore. The point being that it is impossible to even judge rookies who have a ton of playing time and opportunity, and it is that much harder to judge rookies who haven’t even been given an opportunity. Damn, this crap just makes me angry, although I officially stopped caring about what ESPN analystys were saying when they basically described Gallo from last year just this past week, proving that they either don’t watch the Knicks (very excusable of course) or are just plain stupid. Whatever and Wow is all I have to say to that.

I voiced my dis-like of how ESPN has been treating the Knicks yesterday. Especially about adding Jordan Hill on the draft bust list of the decade. Again, they should have no right to put a rookie on the bust list unless he’s a #1 to #3 pick. ESPN seems to hate the Knicks. They love Lebron and the Cavs and are dying to have a Cavaliers vs. Lakers Finals.

Here was my list of people that should’ve been put over Jordan Hill that I mentioned yesterday:

Marcus Fizer with the 4th overall pick in 2000 by the Bulls
Robert Swift with the 12th pick in 2004 by the Sonics
Patrick O’Bryant with the 9th pick in 2006 draft by the Warriors
Micheal Sweetney with the 9th pick in 2003 draft by the Knicks
Hasheem Thabeet with the 2nd pick in 2009 draft by the Grizzlies (If they were going to put a rookie on the list, he should’ve been put on it)

Jerebko has played basketball all his life and has a received playing time because of injuries and the fact that Detroit is deficient in the forward spots. He was also a great pick.

Hill has only been playing basketball for a few years, a poor bball IQ and overall feel for the game, of course he’s going to take longer to develop. He has a logjam in front of him and a coach who prefers (perhaps to a fault) a short rotation. He was also a bad pick. Completely different situation and not worthy of juxtaposition.

Also, Jerebko doesn’t tweet during half time, but that is because he has a top-notch coach in John Kuester to look over his shoulder, making sure he doesn’t use his iPhone and discarding any shred of self-accountability. If only we were lucky enough to have him coaching the Knicks to 8 straight loses…

ESPN’s coverage of the NBA stinks in general. I remember in 2004 how ESPN was basically like the Lakers will sweep the Pistons in the finals…..course there were the few of us that were like, don’t sleep on the Pistons like that. And low and behold, that Pistons team beat the Lakers with Shaq, Kobe, Karl Malone, Gary Payton, etc…
Didn’t ESPN also once question why the Knicks drafted Trevor Ariza? He’s come a long way since his rookie year huh? I can go on and on about ESPN’s horrible coverage of the NBA and their love for the Cavs and Lakers but I’d be typing all day.

Oh and its absolutely ridiculous that you can’t read anything on espn.com without being an “insider”.

I agree.

It’s funny, in November Jennings was shooting the lights our and Duhon couldn’t hit the atmosphere. Now in December it’s the exact opposite. Jennings would have been the better pick and is infinitely better than Duhon, but it’s a funny twist of fate after all the “grass is greener” talk. Jennings is an exciting prospect and I can’t wait to see how well he bounces back as the season goes on.

I have a few thoughts on Hill not playing.

I can understand him not getting any time behind Lee (who is playing great), Gallo, and Harrington. We are trying to win now. I can’t understand giving the benefit of the doubt to Bender over Hill. Now granted, Bender is exactly the type of player that D’Antoni likes and he has a lot more experience. But he hadn’t played in 4 years, is at least 50-50 to go down with an injury at any point, and was not really all that good when he was playing. It was all “potential”, much like Hill. I think if you can find minutes for Bender you can find minutes for Hill (unless of course he’s a total screw up in practice).

I’d like to add one other thing.

I took a look at Hill’s Twitter account to see who he is following and who he has been tweeting to. It looked like an endless list of women who appear open to a little fun (if you know what I mean). So perhaps the reason he’s not playing is that his mind is not on basketball.

A lot of people tear down the Gallo pick because of how Lopez’ came out of the gate, but imagine how Milwaukee feels picking Joe Alexander over him with Skiles benching Bogut. They thank their lucky stars they got Jennings this year or they would be scrapping the bottom of the league with Lopez.

“Hill has only been playing basketball for a few years, [has] a poor bball IQ and overall feel for the game, of course he’s going to take longer to develop. He has a logjam in front of him… He was also a bad pick.”

“We are only one-third of the way into the season, and big men, especially those like Hill, take longer to develop. However, Hill can’t find any minutes on a lottery team, while Jennings has been terrific in the early going. Given Jennings’ strong play, it seems like a stretch to say that the Knicks drafted the right guy.”

Apples and Oranges?

The disclaimer makes Hill’s addition to the list a moot point. It’s basically saying, “it’s too early and too small a sample size to judge, but I’m going to judge anyway.”

Rating a player based only on what one perceives as the coach’s attitude toward that player is just plain silly. The fact that he’s 10th on this list only shows that Ford ran out of ideas and didn’t think this one through. He thinks Hill is a bust because D’antoni won’t play him and neglected countless other terrible picks that warrant no disclaimer.

Jordan Hill was not the right pick, but he hardly has the qualifications to put as a top 10 draft bust of the decade. Not to mention Ford said that the Knicks picked the best available player at 8 with Hill.

Tommy is right, Ford whiffed (again) and ESPN needs to make lists to well rounded numbers like 10.

Why should analysis coming from ESPN mean anything if they have not really been paying attention to the Knicks?

Gallinari will be a fine, well balanced, player whether or not ESPN immediately recognizes or labels him as such. Do you think that the guys he is matched up against and opposition coaches think of him as a one dimensional player at this point? Last year he was probably on the bust list, now he is on the “one trick pony” list. Seems to be a step up to me. At some point sport “analysts” will come around- just a matter of time.

…As for Hill: His value as a player, and whether he is a “bust” will be determined in the future- it is simply not fair to label him one thing or another at this point. You would think that Gallinari’s emergence as a player this year would make people think twice about reaching early conclusions about Hill, but I suppose writers have to write about something, so…

You’re a master at cherry picking, you should be a politician.

Regardless, those statements aren’t irreconcilable. The worth of draft picks does not exist only in the here and now as Ford foolishly infers. Just because Hill doesn’t have the spot on the team today doesn’t mean he lacks a future. He’s playing behind 2 talented expiring contracts and 2 scrubs we’re trying to trade, so his theoretical value exists only in the Knicks future. Just because I think Hill was the wrong pick doesn’t mean I think he’s a top 10 draft bust of the decade. So yes, apples and oranges.

The fact that Chad Ford mentionned Jordan Hill, despite the fact that he liked the pick, and ignored Hasheem Thabeet who was drafted at #2 – two slots ahead of TYREKE EVANS (imagine Tyreke Evans plus OJ Mayo in the backcourt) – in the SAME draft is RIDICULOUS. It is GROSS. I mean what’s the problem, did Danny Ferry pay ESPN analysts to trash the Knicks (lol)?

Oh yeah, and Gallinari racks up 26 points, 8 rebounds and 3 assists (with only 3 3PM) against the Miami Heat and Hollinger has the nerve to say that he’s just a “one-trick pony” again?? Oh yeah I forgot, in this world you don’t have to know what you’re talking about to be an “expert”.

I’m glad that you talked about it Tommy, keep up the good work.

Happy new year guys, 2010!

Seriously….give the kid a break. How much did Chandler or Gallo play in their first seasons? right… Hill will get his minutes when we start trading some players (Jeffries, Curry, Harrington, Lee). Were 30 games into his rookie season and ESPN is already labeling him a bust. GREAT work Chad ford.

I agree.

But the fact that Ford put Hill on the list is absolutely ridiculous.

THANK YOU

PREACH

LOL

1. The Knicks should have drafted Brandon Jennings, I think everybody knows that but we have to get over it.

2. But the fact that Jordan Hill might have been the wrong pick doesn’t mean that Hill is a bust!

Like Circlelimit said, apples and oranges!

Tommy was right, he did not protect Walsh he just criticized Ford’s lack of common sense and his lack of honesty.

I don’t believe Hill is a bust either, but my point is, from the outside looking in, one would have to admit that a player taken in the lottery should be able to find minutes on a team headed back to said lottery.

So, I can’t really blame anyone for thinking otherwise. ESPN and other branches of the media are always going to be hard on the Knicks. It comes with the territory, they’re playing in the media capital of the country. Get over it. We (NYers) all. Should have a thick skin to that stuff by now. When the team is relevant they will equally as overhyped as they are being trashed right now. Its part of what makes winning here so special and unique.

As far as Hill is concerned, I’m sure there is nothing wrong with his legs. I doubt he could be any more raw than any other rookie big man adjusting to the NBA game.

I, for one, am hoping it is just a case of playing for legendarily stubborn and ignorant coach.

“I don’t believe Hill is a bust either, but my point is, from the outside looking in, one would have to admit that a player taken in the lottery should be able to find minutes on a team headed back to said lottery (…) I, for one, am hoping it is just a case of playing for legendarily stubborn and ignorant coach”

I wouldn’t call Mike D’Antoni ignorant, he has done a great job (I’m not talking about Jordan Hill and Nate Robinson – just the results on the basketball court) since the 1-9 start but that was a very good post HaS.

Yeah that is the worst crap ever. What a load of bs!! Can’t do anything on that site without a prompt to buy insider because thats the only way to get their analysis, which apparently sucks anyway. What a joke.

I agree with pretty much everything there.

The Jordan Hill pick looks bad from the outside AND inside. But, no matter what angle you’re looking at it, for Ford to declare it one of the top 10 draft busts of the past decade is a shortsighted to say the least. The botch was in not picking Jennings or Lawson etc, but not necessarily on the pick of Hill himself as a player. We just haven’t been able to see anything from him. For all we know Hill could be Bosh in the making and D’antoni is just too blind to give him a chance. Probably not, but we just don’t know. To me it looks like Ford just ran out ideas and pulled the trigger way too early on this one. If another year or two goes by and nothing has changed, then I’ll be happy to revisit the notion.

As for the media attitude towards the Knicks, I wholeheartedly agree. We have a huge payroll in a huge market. Knicks have been the Yankees of the NBA but instead we suck and have been sucking for years having no one to blame but themselves. Knicks deserve ridicule, for the past decade our franchise has been a joke. Still, our rich pedigree of bad drafting and general mismanagement isn’t an excuse for a poorly thought out ESPN list. My skin is thick when the criticisms have a logical basis, and for the most part that has been the case, such as pieces about MD’s short rotation or Walsh’s unwillingness to make moves this summer or pretty much anything negative written during the Zeke/Starbury era. But this article/list, along with the rash of ESPN analysts referring to Gallo as a one-trick pony is simply a kneejerk reaction to what is perceived to be the inevitable failure of the Knicks. I can’t really blame them, because we’ve failed a lot, but it all seems very premature.

Can’t deny we’re a franchise in disarray, but I don’t think it can be put on D’antoni whether you like his style or not. It has just as much to do with Donnie Walsh/Zeke and the players themselves. I disagree with some of D’antoni’s decisions and he’s stubborn and doesn’t communicate well, but I do think we could have done a lot worse as far as coaches go. Averaging out a horrid November with an nice December, Knicks are just about what I was expecting this year, maybe a few games under but we’re on an upswing. I don’t think there is a coach in the league that could turn this motley crew into a .500 team. Is MD a Popavich or a Jackson? Hell no, but not many coaches are and I don’t think there was a coach available in 2008 that would be doing better than D’antoni now. Needless to say I’m not an Avery fan and I’d rather see Mark Jackson in an assisting gig first, even if only to get him away from the mic. I also think a lot of people will change their tune if/when we get legitimate talent on this team. I could very well be wrong, but I’m waiting until the 2010 season to pass my final judgment on D’antoni (and Walsh for that matter.)

Whether Hill is a legitimate bust, a victim of the coach’s stubborn rotation or walsh’s logjam or a combination thereof, we’ll just have to wait and see. I just wish Chad Ford would too.

Agreed on both points, and a fair post by Has.

Mucha, right on, D’Antoni hasn’t been that bad. This team isn’t that great, but the players do play hard for the coach, and considering what the fans have been through for the last 8 years; I’ll take whatever improvement the team makes.

AS DP CALLS THEM THE MOTHERSHIP OR FOX SPORTS calls them the 4-Letter. ESPN is so full of themselves these days its not fun to watch them anymore. They are noticeably bias in every sport and try to steer us the watchers to jump on thier bandwagon. I dont listen to them when they address the Knicks because they are not informed as they would have us believe.

ESPN was great what in 92-93?

We missed the boat on jennings but I think his leash would have been so short with Mike D, he would not be excelling like he has in Milwaukee. Let J Hill get significant minute before we call him a bust

Was I annoyed that the Knicks drafted Hill on draft day? Yes. Was I mad that the Knicks passed on Jennings and took Hill on draft day? Absolutely not. I was more angry that Golden State took Curry than I was at the Knicks taking Hill. I also thought that perhaps they should have traded down and collected an additional asset before grabbing another point guard.

Did I ever think at any point on draft day that the Knicks blew it by not taking Jennings? No. I never even thought about it. This was a player that was so unsure about where he would be drafted, that he was afraid to stay in the green room beforehand. I don’t remember anyone being sure about Jennings including most of you on this blog.

Am I a bit annoyed now that the Knicks passed on Jennings? Of course. I almost threw up when he scored 55 points that night. He has been a big surprise as far as I am concerned and in hindsight, I wish that we had taken him or anyone that would have energized this team and contributed in a major way.

The fact of the matter is, we are all Monday morning quarterbacks. It is easy to state after the fact that Donnie blew it. If that is the case, then Toronto blew it too. But that’s besides the point.

When I honestly break down the Jennings situation, I truly agree with Mal’s point that Jennings would not have had the same INITIAL success here. Have you looked at that team that he plays with in Milwaukee? I challenge you to name the other 4 starters and 1st 2 off of the bench………… I’m waiting………Exactly. They have nobody. They need Jennings to score and create for himself. Mike D.’s offense is based on the PG creating for others. I am not saying that he couldn’t do it, but I doubt that he would be putting up the same numbers here. Based on that, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.

Now as far as Jennings being a bigger draw to lure Lebron. That is nonsense to me. Think about players like Lebron, D. Wade, Kobe, and even Jordan. Who was the best PG that any of them ever played with? The fact of the matter is, these elite players do not need a scoring PG. Jordan won with Paxton and Hodges. Kobe won with Fisher. D. Wade won with Jason Williams. Lebron isn’t even thinking about Jennings. The ball will be in Lebron’s hands most of the time. All he needs are players that can make wide open jumpers and dunks.

I am just being real and honest here. I have faith in what DW and MD are trying to do. I trust that Hill will be a long term fixture here once all of these players ahead of him are gone. I doubt that Lebron cares either way.