The State of Nate…Part 2

With regard to your convo with Q, I get what you mean, but “my best year” isn’t only about wins and losses either. With Q, he seemed to talk about himself stat-wise, but that doesn’t mean with every player having a best year is based on a team around you or 2-3ppg more; players can get in zones and be unconscious compared to their talent level, and THAT could be their best year. That PHX team is a LOT different than LAC, no? As it relates to Q, I agree with you, but it’s not an either/or situation with stats and wins. It can be quality of play, too.

Was interested to see what you would have to say on this TD. Nice job calling out Q_Rich too. However:

“But let’s get real, looking back is silly, and fans love to do it.”

If you don’t learn from your mistakes you are doomed to repeat them. The Knicks repeatedly draft forwards and not PGs in the draft. Consistently make trades where we trade away our future for aging veterans or players who have won nothing in this league. Can we as fans not look back and expect more from our team.

“Why can’t fans just celebrate a win?”

The Knicks have been inconsistent for the past decade. They put together a few wins and then have horrible stretches and play with the type of pathetic performance they put up against NJ. If the fan base has becoming uninspired this team deserves it. Plus this is a blog or forum for debate. You really don’t want everyone to come here and chearlead and have the same opinion right?

“But to get back to the Nate vs D’Antoni thing, Nate played and the coach ran plays for him down the stretch.”

Of all the D’Antoni bashing this was an excellent point. Maybe Nate forced D’Antoni’s hand with his stellar play but D’Antoni certainly could have put Duhon back in the game but he stuck with Nate running the show. Now it is up to Nate to continue to be a professional and more importantly get his teamates involved.

Alot of the tweeters and others are forgetting Nate’s meltdowns and inconsistent play before the benching which is why I was in favor of it. But, 14 games was just insane. Also, TD you minimize how much Nate would have helped us in that NJ game which even Myles described as a must win.

People tend to fall on the D’Antoni can do nothing wrong side or D’Antoni is a genius. I think he is a very good coach who needs to focus more on defense (which to his credit he is trying to do) and expand his rotation more when players are clearly struggling (Duhon, Hughes). He also needs to check that ego for the best interests of the team (but I guess if he was capable of that he would still be in PHX).

But anyway:

“I don’t believe this was a right or wrong situation”.

Life is typically in the gray area. But it is hard to argue that benching one of your best offensive players for 14 games, when at times your team looked pathetic offensively was the “right” move. That said Nate’s defense to me, especially in the 4th qtr looked much improved (aggressively in passing lanes and crashing down on double teams) so there was a benefit. But if we miss the playoffs by 2 or 3 games I think D”Antoni may regret the length of the lesson he was teaching Nate.

Children sometimes need drastic disciplinary measures. Hope N8 finally learned his lesson. He needed to grow up.

Seems N8 is now the Knix shooting guard and main point guard. The back court is in trouble if Hughes will be saddled with injuries from here on out.

Hope DW trades Harrington for a shooting guard.

Harrington+Hughes= T Mac?

Nice piece Tommy..

My only issue. — and I tweeted this last nite — was this “coach was running plays for Nate stuff”./

The coach has only two plays in his book right now.. the pick and roll and the screen and pop..

Nate was the primary ball handler last nite for a reason.. HE WAS HOT..

Bottom line.. If the coach just pulled him out we would have lost.

Nate had the rock and executed down the stretch.. something really no one on this team can do. If Nate has to take the game into his own hands lets just commend him for having that ability not hate on him for doing what he CAN do..

To hate on him for scoring 22 in the 4th against the Magic is just crazy.. No one on this team WANTs the ball in crunch time. Thats not a knock because very few players in the league want it when the game is on the line..

its a rare talent that needs to be harnessed and exploited..

lets hope things are cool moving forward and EVERYONE learned a lesson from last nite.

I was indifferent to the Nate benching, hopefully this turns into a positive and Nate turns into a quality team PG just so we don’t have to see Duhon down the stretch of games again.

My feeling on the situation was this:

D’Antoni is the coach, He is paid 6 million per season to make the decisions on this team. Whether we like it or not, D’Antoni decides who plays and who does not. If he felt that Nate did not fit, then I respect his decision (albeit while disagreeing with it.)

Despite that, I always said that Nate does not belong buried on an NBA bench. He is just too good for that. If he didn’t have a spot on this team, then I hoped that Walsh would deal him to a spot where he could play.

I am thrilled for Nate as he handled this situation with class.

By the way, did anyone catch his postgame interview with Tina Cervasio? It sounded like a HOF induction speech.

Trying to ask everyone to agree on either Nate or Coach D is impossible. If it wasn’t, we would all live in a peaceful world but we don’t. I think Nate and Coach D are a lot more a like than they would care to admit.

Both are very passionate and display a love for the game. Both try their hardest to win, but can be stubborn in their beliefs. I don’t think any true Knick fan can argue that Nate can play selfish, though I did believe he is just trying his best. I think he currently lacks the ability to distinguish between playing hard and playing smart. As for Coach D, I would never doubt he is always trying to win (or we would be playing Hill and TD right now). He is a good coach and his offensive philosophy is great for this era of the NBA (no handchecking, etc). Though that is great, he has proven to be very stubborn as well.

He made decisions on Marbury, Hughes and to an extent Curry without giving them a shot. The Marbury situation turned into a disaster and a distraction. In the Hughes case, he really had no choice but to play him because of the horrendous play of Duhon in the beginning. As for Curry, one might question whether he even deserves a second chance. When I see Brook Lopez and Yi destroy the Knicks on the block, I say yes. If not for a potential jolt to a floundering team in the NJ game, he should have inserted him to at least body up Lopez and potentially draw fouls on him in the post. I HATE the arguement that players are finding it hard to throw the ball into him on the low block. They are getting paid millions to play the game of basketball. This entails the occasional bounce pass into the low post. If you can fake a pass over your head and then throw a bounce pass into the low post, you shouldn’t be in the NBA. With all that said, I still think Curry played with no heart. I am at the point where I think it is genetics and this is how his personality will always be. Unfortunate, but give Malik Rose or Anthony Bonner his body and they would have been all stars with their heart.

I agree with Tommy that we should all be happy about wins and pissed about losses, but in this city is not that simple.

I for one am NOT a Mike (no)D’Antonie supporter. However if we win…………that is all that matters. I just think that we…………..errr……..I am critical of him because I am used to a certain style of basketball. Defensive minded basketball. I loved Pat “The Rat” Riley because when he came from LA he was all about showtime but with The Knicks he adjusted and turned us into a strong, defensive minded, physical team. Rarely did Riley had any problems with players and if he did (which I am sure he did) it was never public. Jeff Van Gundy followed him with the same brand of basketball.

I feel that in his short time here Mike (no)D’Antonie has mishandled many situations with players and it’s cost us wins, which is the bottom line, right Tommy????

The reason so many players love him is because of his rotation. If he likes you then you get 35+ minutes a game.

Like I said earlier, I as a fan will accept him if we win. Winning cures all right???

LOL!!!!!!!!

” I wanna thank my moms, my girlfriend, my agents, coach, my teammates, the trainer for running steps with me……………………………………………”

LOVED IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agree T.D….Nate is quite talented however the winning started with “team ball” and Hopefully Nate has learned that this is required in this system. I think Mike D benching him until the New Year was clever becoz that has never happened to him before and he needed a reality check. He was struggling and talking back at times on the bench to the coaching staff….

It will make him a better player going thru it…At least Mike D took him to breakfast and let him know one-on-one….not like other coaches.

If he can get his assists up it will help and minimize Du-Du’s folly’s down the stretch. I think Du-Du is better when he doesn’t play 40 mins a game….

Did I just say that? It must be the New Year hangover…lol

I hope this is a beginning of something good for the knicks as this month can be a winning one also.

Nate is one of those missing pieces that the knicks needed. now to get a big man. could curry improve and fill that roll?

Buzzer beater like Kobe.

You did it man.

This whole situation was over blown. Alot of people wanted to compare it to Marbury last year which was a mistake. Mainly because Nate is a much better teammate than marbury. Nate said all the right things and waited for his time to come. Nate’s defense was awful in November and he needed to be benched. I liked how D’antoni didnt fold early in the month and it payed off last night. Nate obviously learned his lesson the hard way and hopefully he will continue to thrive on the offensive and defensive end.
However, D’antoni was an idiot for not putting him into the NJ game at least in the second half. That was a must win game for us and he blew it.

Great piece Tommy. On the final dagger 3 by Nate at the end of overtime, Dantoni clearly told everyone to clear out and Nate to take his man one on one(he was at halfcourt yelling at everyone). That gave me a lot of respect for Dantoni and so did his hilariously awkward press conference. He didn’t want to talk about the issue, and just said Nate was amazing and hopefully he can continue and we can continue winning. In the end, thats what its all about. And Nate was also amazing throughout the whole process, and I genuinely hope that he has learned a lesson and will continue some of those good passes and hard defense down the line. If he does that, then he really can help us on every night win.

I agree with you Tommy. Players come and go, Knicks and hopefully the fans stay.

Nate benching had a reason, is performance was extraordinary, but not because he scored 41, the FG% is the more impressive number in the stat line, in my opinion. The Knicks have players who can put 41 almost every night. Al, Wilson, Nate.. but all of this has to go hand in hand with TEAM performance. We have all seen what Al and Nate do to this team when they decide to take the ME against the world atitute. Knicks lose most of the times.
Saying that the Knicks were winning without Nate because they were playing under .500 teams completely misses the point. Were the Knicks winning this season or past season, with Nate, against under .500 teams?

And why can’t people give credit to D’Antoni for taking control of the locker room? Wasn’t Isiah Thomas circus enough? Marbury undermining every single coach the Knicks had was okay with you?
It was only one game, but if a player needs to get benched for 14 games, so that he can grow more mature so be it.

D’Antoni could have went almost anywhere we wanted, taken a year off, and go somewhere else, without meda pressure, etc.. D’Antoni is a great, great coach, and he deserves credit.

He accepted to work through this mess, through losing seasons, that at the end hurt the coach alot. If the Knicks get Lebron in 2010 and they don’t have a 60 win season, everybody will be throwing themselves at D’Antoni’s neck.

This coach has the toughest job in the NBA..

Jordan Hill

This is my conspiracy theory. Jordan Hill will get minutes once Jeffries or Curry (not, of course) is traded, or after the trade deadline.
The Knicks don’t really need Hill to play at the moment, they have other alternatives. I believe the Knicks do not want to showcase Hill, and having other teams asking for him in every single Jeffries deal. So it’s better to have him working on his game at the pratice facility. He ‘s still a rookie, he’ll get is minutes sooner than later.

Sorry for my english..I had more franch than english at school
Cheers.

Good post.

A lot of people here, who shall remain nameless, said that they never wanted to see Nate again. Even going as far as to say he’s “not that good or important”. Some went even further to say, “he’ll be out of the league next year”. Really? Then with the same breath say “I hope they just let him rot at the end of the bench and don’t let him play anywhere else”. That level of hate was simply unwarranted.

SMH

Spot on post.

Nate was impressive last night. Would we have won more games in December if Nate was playing? Who knows. Would Nate have come out and saved the day if D’antoni hadn’t motivated him? Who knows. That ax swings both ways and it’s pointless to argue. The important thing is that the Knicks beat one of the better teams in the league on the road… with Josh Smith this time.

One word that stood out in Nate’s post-game interview was humbled, I hope he continues to feel that way. Nate showed us his typical explosive play over and over again last night, but he also made some of his classic turnovers. Let’s see if he can keep up this level of focus before we drink the Nate Kool-aid.

I never had a problem with D’antoni benching Nate, I only had a problem with the duration and not putting him in when we obviously needed him. Now was this D’antoni being stubborn or D’antoni asserting himself? I lean towards the former but in reality it was a mixture of both. No matter which side you take, it’s comforting to know that the Knicks can win with or without Nate.

Even though Nate was the outright savior last night, give credit to D’antoni for trusting Nate and eating some humble pie. He ran iso play after iso play for Nate and allowed him to be the hero. These are plays where Nate either drops jaws or creates an onslaught of groans. D’antoni’s confidence in him shows that Nate wasn’t the only person to learn a valuable lesson. Let’s hope both of them take this as a learning experience and move forward towards an even more successful January.

btw, Happy New Year to you all.

The Knicks played 2 games over .500 (8-6) in the games Nate sat. Not exactly dogmatic evidence that the team is better off with that type of talent languishing on the bench.

On the Alston news, I really like Skip. He’s my style of 1, but he’s a free agent next year. We can wait. That trade would’ve been highly unnecessary. DW’s no dummy.

Coach told the team to give Nate iso’s

Yea, Tommy, i agree with the jist of your piece. I thought that i was going to come on to TKB to a bunch of ecstatic fans raving about how cool it is to have nate back, and how great it is that we played so great last night. And about how if we were 9-6 without him, and he comes back and plays consistently, we’ll do even better.

Instead, it was a series accusations and ‘blame’ being thrown around. I was confused, because what is there to ‘blame’ someone for? We won. We have been winning and we won. Nate had issues with the coach, sat out for a while, we won games, and he came back and played really well and lead us to a huge win.

That is a good thing right? But instead everyone was angry, making sarcastic comment after sarcastic comment about how stupid dantoni looks, calling for all the ‘haters’ to come and say something… The irony is that THESE people are the haters. Am i a hater because i had nothing against the benching? Because i believe nate has been very detrimental to the team at times? I don’t think so… as long as we were winning i was happy. But i’m just as happy to have him back.

I never complained about the nate benching because i trust the coach and because we were winning games. Yes, we obviously needed some extra offense at times, but over-all it was a successful month so i don’t care if they benched Lee… we were winning.

nate came back last night, and he played amazingly, (much better than he ever played before the benching). people seem to forget that he was terrible before we benched him. It would be amazing if he could actually come off the bench and play consistently now…

Again, my point, and i think tommy’s point, is that this is a good thing. A very good thing.

And so far nobody on the “hater” side has even proposed the idea that maybe this benching was good for nate! it might have been hit or miss for the team as a whole, but we got along without him…. but maybe this motivated him to new heights… the word ‘humbled’ is HUGE to be coming out of his mouth, and the fact that he just had his best game, maybe ever, is A GOOD thing… I don’t get how there is so much negetive reaction. If nate comes out and does this again 2 nights in a row, the coach deserves CREDIT, not criticism.

I guess we should give him credit for Bender and Hughes’ injuries as well? Probably the only concrete reason he gave Nate any minutes at all. The record was 8-6 btw, not 9-6. It could have possibly been 11-3, but no sense in looking back now. Whatever. I still hate this coach.

Happy New Year Jeff!

Happy new year…

I didn’t know hughes was injured, i just thought he decided to go with nate over him because he was struggling.

I think he always planned on putting nate back in eventually, i just don’t think he knew exactly when… This was a good opportunity to do that. And all I’m saying is that if nate goes on an amazing spree of play from here on out, it is POSSIBLE that the benching was a good thing for both him and the team.

And yes, i know you hate the coach… lol.

Tommy: good post. Most of the commentors were positive about Nate and D’Antoni. D’Antoni only wants to win games. I think Nate understands that by staying more focused he will have great success under D’Antoni. Good lesson learned by all. Happy New Year

huh?

were you in the huddle?

seriously though.. I saw it live and then just watched Tommy’s you tube.. there were MAYBE three possessions that could be called “iso” plays..

the rest were fast breaks, dribble drive break downs,outside shots, failed pick and rolls with Jeffries (why JJ was paired in this role is beyond me) and put backs off offensive rebounds

Hughes has been hurt for most of the past 10 days with a pulled groin..

Another point i’d like to make — and not in direct reponse to you Jeff — is hte myth that Nate was playing horribly in the days before the “benching”..

If we go back and look TWO games before Nate was “exiled” He scored 22 in the fourth quarter against the Magic..

Nate said after the game that he is doing the same things in game that makes him who he is.. Nothing has realyl changed from that stand point..

There as a lot of good natured ribbing on my part (and others) last night.. Its all good.. and wasnt meant to be malicious ..

fact is.. we all want wins.. that is obvious.. but if we are all to just chant the company line then why even comment?

Good, honest, civil debate is what being a fan is all about..

we all want the end result but may disagree on how to get there.. When one party is proven right in a debate its human nature to crow a little bit.. dont take it personally.. (again.. not directed at you Jeff)

Happy New Year.

i think those comments were few and far between.

Most of the ProBenching camp saw the greatness inside nate, and felt that something needed to be done to help get it out.

I see much more hate going the other way. Where people were calling for Mike D to be fired and Donnie W is a moron.

People were even comparing it to the Steph situation, but only to show that Mike D has no idea how to handle players.

The Knicks played to a 2-9 record in the games Nate played significant minuets. Not exactly dogmatic evidence that the team is better off with that type of talent in the rotation.

Wow! N8 has changed due to his benching?

I for one, do not see it that much in one game. N8 can always be a spark plug off the bench but he could also kill the team by playing out of control or not allowing the game to come to him at times. When other players are on, it is important for N8 to recognize that and set those players up.

For me, last night proved that this dude can be effective on the floor especially when he is playing aggressive on the defensive end and taking advantage of mismatches on offense.

D’Antoni NEVER needed to bench N8 for a month. All he had to do was instruct N8 and his team what he expected of them and if he sees that not getting done, he would keep them on the bench!

D’Antoni is not a good coach for this team. We really don’t see players developing and the young players seem to be mostly nailed to the bench!

N8 will be N8, some night he will save ya and some night he will kill ya. It’s up to the coach to put in the necessary accountability!

again.. just to put it out there.. But the variance in teh record is directly related to the play of Duhon..

Clyde made that exact point last night during the game.

Hughes has been hurt, yes, but this moment was coming.

I find it hard to believe its a coincidence that the benching was exactly one month… but it could be.

The rotation was set and Nate was on the outside. When it needed to be adjusted, it was and now nate is back in. If/When the team starts to sputter, it will be adjusted again.

Ive said it before. A 1 month benching does not = exiled or banished or anything else… it means a benching. Players come back from riding the pine. Malik Rose said it in pregame, players get benched all the time. Nate deserves TONS of credit for the way he handled it. He was perfect and it could be the tone setter for the rest of the season. COULD BE.

I just read your post and it’s right on! N8 played similarly to the way he always play. It’s just that he was really on and played a little more aggressively on defense.

It was more noticable because others like Lee, Duhon and etc were awol so N8 only had to focus on his own offense which he is better suited to do.

The issue for N8 occurs when what happens when other players are on and we need N8 to set those people up. That’s the maturity that N8 has to get better at!

Yup. Just playing devils advocate to the above comment.

I think that coach just did put in the necessary accountability and we are seeing the results.
N8 has been given the same talk over and over again by Brown, Thomas, and D’Antoni. And now he knows, and he will not forget, what the consequences are for ignoring his coach.
All of us, most of all N8, are excited to see him flourish and help this team win.
For the record, I would have definitely put N8 in to the San Antonio and NJ games.
I hope that Biggie et al are going to feel good enough about the situation and themselves to give it a rest s we can move on to some more interesting things about the team and the season.

no tthat you could or should answer this rhetorical question..

but if Bender and Hughes were not hurt would we have seen Nate last nite?

i feel great about myself homie..

like Nate said.. its a new year and a clean slate..(hopefully not a clean slate like the coach said last year.. no shots)

Happy new year.

lol Did u watch the game. Did u see the expression on our coach face when N8 shot that 3 in overtime and etc.

I didn’t see much difference in N8 game than before!

You don’t need to set a player you need to provide a spark for a month to instill accountability.

N8 and the other need to have the coach tell them in better detail what he expects of them. How many times do we see the wrong person getting the ball at end of games to shoot instead of our shooters or the person hot?

How many times do we see the lane wide open for opposing teams?

How many times do we see the ball stop moving in critical moments of the game. Anyone who has played this game on a decent level, can tell ya that the coach would call a time out and instruct his team about these failures as they occur. Also that coach would reinforce dealing with these bad habits in film sessions and in practices.

This is what I mean about teaching moments as they occur and laying down the law during those moments. That is how you get your pt across along with the accountability needed. ALL players see this and they see that the coach is being fair and serious about his wants and don’t wants!

Oh No u didn’t lol

Lee said it in postgame, I think Duhon did too.

And there were way more than three I saw it live too. Later in the game if the break failed and were stuck in the half court when Nate was on the floor, they would iso. You can do a dribble-drive or outside shot off the isolation, they are not exclusive. The iso is more amorphic in D’antoni’s system because of the amount of spacing that already exists. Even when Nate took it up himself they gave him extra spacing isolating him, not a play I know but that’s something the coach can implore.

A coach can’t really design how a player reacts off the iso and for that Nate gets a majority of the credit, but D’antoni called for the ball to be in Nate’s hands down the stretch, no two ways about it.

if we went the rest of the season with the short rotation with nate on the bench… had no injurys to any of our guards, and continued to win at a .600 clip? No, I dont think we would have seen nate.

I think he was taken out of the rotation and when it was working it stayed. When it broke, it was changed, he got a shot and made the most of it. If he keeps it up and we continue to win, I dont see it changing.

If we finish January with a poor record, then I would expect changes again.

Let’s not pretend that Nate always has games like last night. In fact, a lot of the time when Nate has a great individual game we lose. Last night we needed Nate to take over, but can Nate be effective when we don’t need him to take over? That’s the real question and it has yet to be answered. And of course, the only way to answer it is by playing Nate.

Quentin Richardson: Shout out to my lil bro @Nate_Robinson. Way to go get 40 as soon as they stopped the foolishness!! Somebody don’t look too bright over there. Twitter..

i wonder who he’s taking shots at

i wonder i wonder.
lmao..

My thoughts on the Nate 41 Special: http://tinyurl.com/ycf36vm

Re the Nate situation I think there are a bunch of things we call can agree on.

1) To open the season the Knicks (the team INCLUDING Nate) play uninspired, uncompetitve, down by 20 in the 3rd quarter basketball.

2) In December the coach made some changes to the rotation (Nate collects DNPs) and the team won more games in Dec than they had in any one month since 2001.

3) Over the past week+ the bench looked worn down and did not provide much energy or scoring.

4) The coach puts Nate back in to the rotation and he is the key to winning last night’s game on the road vs a playoff team.

Not sure there is any debate here.

Going into the season this was a roster few coaches envied with nearly everyone in the last year of their contract wanting/needing to play. Few bloggers or NBA analysts predicted the Knicks would be competitive let alone be in the playoff hunt. This was supposed to be the year the team showcased Curry and groomed the rookies. D’Antoni was the offensive minded coach folks complained didn’t focus enough on defense.

Still with me?

Why all the D’Antoni haters? He has asserted control over the roster, has the team focused on defense, has the team playing competitively, has them in the (weak EC) playoff hunt, and has focused the team’s defense.

Bottom line for Knick Nation: You should be pretty upbeat.

Are you Nate Fans or Knick Fans?

Smartest thing I heard on this thread since i’ve been on it. I share the same beliefs on the comments about nate and coach D.

takeout jefferies an the knicks got no D

The best part was when he thanked his online friends that he plays video games with. He said “I wanna thank my online friends, X-Box V-fam, what up!” That ish was hilarious. He even gave them a fist bump to the camera. Somewhere, a few 13 year old nerds were thrilled.