Inside the Numbers

You mean to tell me that when a system is adjusted to fit the players that are intact instead of vice versa that a team shows marked improvement?

Insanity.

Is it possible to tell eddy curry to decline his option for next year then sign him to a 6 year deal worth 12 million and imediatley buy him out of that so he gets his money from us and the ability to play on another team to make more money and we get our precious cap space

Jordan Hill will be fine – he played extremely well in his junior season.

But David Lee and Jared Jeffries have been given more than 40 minutes on several occasions and I think Jordan Hill could’ve helped (in Chicago for example). I don’t even want to see him play everynight anyways – but I think Hill could help when the Knicks need size and D. Lee needs to rest. And I hope that he is not starting to lose his enthusiasm on the bench.

He’ll be fine guys – he just needs to calm down and focus more on the fundamentals when he steps on the court (and he needs to get minutes). I think he’ll be a POOR MAN’S Jermaine O’Neal in a couple of years.

Does Hill getting minutes next year spell the end of D Lee in NYC?

If Hill can do what Lee does in teh PnR and add a consistent 18 footer AND block a shot or more a game then lee walking is assured

ive already laid out how we cannot afford to sign the guy and persue a max free agent so maybe its best if we look to deal from strength and move him to Dallas for Josh Howard’s expiring deal and work Hill in the second half..

I like this idea. Get on the phone with the accountant, his agent, and our lawyers.

next year we will be looking at a front court rotation of

Lebron (hopefully)
Gallo
Chandler
Hill
Jeffries
Bender?

that could win some games

I’m a big David Lee fan, and would hate to see him go, but I’m with you Biggie. If Hill can be 85% as good as Lee is and cost us a rookie’s salary, and we could get a couple of future #1s for him, I say we trade him before the deadline to a serious contender. Or how about Houston getting him and Curry for McGrady? Would we need to throw Nate in on that deal as well?

I’ve always been on the “Trade David Lee” bandwagon – I love him but we can’t afford to lose him for nothing. The fact that my cap analysis was too optimistic – considering that I forgot to include the last rotation players that we’ll have to aquire (thanks for your help Big) – reinforces my opinion.

i dont think they would take Curry…

Lee, JJ and Buckets for McGrady and Budiner would work

then you could resign Buckets as a UFA for 5 mil or so..

No one will want Eddy Curry until maybe next year when his contract will be up….

Hill was clearly drafted as David Lee insurance.

If they don’t resign Lee then they can go to $8 million or so on another FA (point guard). If they do resign Lee, could they then fill up remaining roster spots with minimum salaries, reach the cap limit, and then use the mid-level exception to get a point guard?

I also wonder if Eddy Curry’s contract becomes attractive next summer for sign and trades if there are teams who regret having signed players to long term deals. I’ll try to think of a good PG who is signed long-term to a team where he is a bad fit for one reason or another.

you dont get a mid level exception of you are under the cap..

Curry’s contract will be valuable next year as an expiring deal.

While I think it’s a good idea to trade Lee now (his value will never be higher), I find it hard to see how another team would give up draft picks for a player they would only have for the rest of this year. Anyway, I’m not really sure we can afford to take back 1st rd picks if we don’t get rid of Curry/Jeffries — those are guaranteed contracts that will cut into our cap space next year. And it’s even harder to see a team giving up 1st rd pick(s) for Lee and Curry/JJ.

good luck convincing anyone to get out of an 11 million dollar contract.

I think it’s obvious Hill should be getting some of Harrigton’s minutes from time to time.

Harrington does only one thing.

He occasionally has an all star caliber night on the offensive end and can create his own shot and carry a team.

The problem is he turns the ball over too much, never passes after he gets it, is not a good rebounder for a PF, doesn’t block shots, and is an extremely inconsistent shooter.

So basically you get 1 night where he helps you win or stay in a game you would otherwise lose and 2-3 nights where he gives you less than the average PF or single handedly loses the game with turnovers and horrid shooting. That’s not a good deal!

He’s wildly overrated because people focus on his talents and those occasional big games without noticing that relative to the typical PF he produces very little.

I seriously doubt that this team would be hurt much in the short term by subbing Hill for Harrington and using Harrington in a role similar to the one appropriate for Nate. Both are the kind of player that can create their own shot and get hot enough to carry a team. So you should use then when the rest of the offense is stagnant. But if the offense is doing well, they should never even get near the court.

In the long term it’s a no brainer to play and develop Hill. Even if Hill doesn’t turn into anything special, I’d be willing to be my life against a dollar he’ll be better than Harrington in a very short period of time (assuming people actually look at Harimgton’s production relative to other PF’s appropriately).

Good article Tommy. Glad to hear Jordan Hill is putting in the extra work in practice. I actually liked the pick and I’ve never said anything negative about Hill. He needs time to develop and the organization is doing it the right way instead of just throwing him into the fire. Playing in NY is a lot diff then other cities. We don’t need our fan base and media destroying his confidence. He can learn from Lee how to position himself for rebounds and how to pick his spots in the offense. Now if I don’t see improvement from Hill by the end of the season going into next season, then I won’t be so quiet…

I don’t think we should trade Lee (besides the fact that’s he’s now playing dynamite ball) because I think the probability of signing a true Max Contract player are not very high and go even lower if we don’t also have Lee.

I think we should be thinking in the more realistic terms of adding another young solid player to a core of Lee, Gallo, Chandler, Hill and Douglas via free agency while still working to reduce cap space with either a trade of Jeffries or a buyout of Curry that frees up a couple of million. I would not trade Lee unless we got an offer we could not refuse.

Curry is still getting paid tho…. This is a great idea. If only we can rally in favor of it somehow….

The probability of signing a max contract might go “even lower” theorically without David Lee, but if the Knicks retain Lee’s rights the probability would be (mathematically) 0.

I don’t think that is possible (see the Joe Smith scandal) but who knows.

remember that Lee is a UFA this year and is free to sign here for a discount if he plays the last 40 games with another team.

keeping his Bird rights and the cap hold will handicap us to the point we will not have the space to go after a max player..

geting rid of JJ’s contract (with Lee as the sweetener) means we will have over 30 mil of free space this off season to go after Lebron and whomever he wants his team mates to be.

win / win

Is it possible? No, it is not possible.

Don’t worry, we won’t be under the cap: after signing one or two (please, Lord, please!) high-priced FAs, we will be bumping the cap limit and still have our own FAs to deal with – which we can over the cap to sign (or sign/trade).

So, rest assured, we will be over the cap, but by how much I’m not sure anyone knows, yet.

And I’m guessing DW is looking ahead to 2011 when Curry/JJ come off the books. If that ~$18M can get us under that year’s cap, we can target another high-priced FA, ex: Paul, Melo, etc.

I don’t think you’d need to add Buddinger to make the numbers work:

Lee ($7M)
JJ (~$6M)
Harrington ($10M)

TMac (~$23M)

(I don’t know if it’s encouraging or sad I know these numbers off the top of my head and at the same time struggle with Finance calculations for MBA. )

It’s more likely we would have to give up draft picks for another team to take JJ or EC. Neither is worth a first rounder.

if you start the offseason under the cap, but then hit the cap… do you then get the midlevel for the rest of the offseason?

no disrespect but you got it all wrong bro .

1. we will be under the cap July 1 and cant go over to sign free agents.. if we cap hold our own guys we will nto ahve the space to go after a 2010 FA

2. Chris Paul is signed thru 2011/2012 with a player option for 2013

3. Melo has a 18.5 mi player option for 2011/2012

no

you dont but i got a man crush on Budinger

Agreed that trading Lee is the best thing the Knicks could do if it rids them of JJ/Curry — meaning room for one max FA and another/one FA close to max. Otherwise, they’ve got to think about giving up Hill, Chandler, or Gallo in order to get rid of JJ/Curry.

It’s hard for me to see a team taking on JJ/Curry for 1.5 years for the avlue of a half season of D Lee (especially when they would be sending us a bunch of expiring contracts that they could trade for more). I worry that moving Gallo is the only way we can get the cap space we need. Kind of sad.

The problem is with Lee being on a one-year contract, he can void any trades he doesn’t like. If we trade him, he loses the benefits that come with “Bird rights.”

It happened in 2008 with Devean George, at the time on the Mavs. (See espn.com: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3246325)

So unless we trade him to a playoff contender (meaning more exposure for him) with cap space next year (so he can try to max out), it’s gonna be hard to move him.

Who plays the 5 in that rotation? Hill? Jeffries? Bender? Not that Lee is Bill Russell, but we will killed by other teams’ big 4′s and centers with that line-up.

How about a summer sign-and-trade of Lee and Nate for Bosh – assuming Bosh can force Toronto’s hand into it (vs. losing him for nothing).

Chris Sheridan proposed that earlier this week during his espn.com chat ( http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/30156/nba-with-chris-sheridan ). Daddy likey…

you got that right.. But Bird rights are a tool for the team not the player..

realistically the Knicks have to renounce Bird Rights to Lee in order to get far enough under the cap to go after a max free agent.

i think with 40 or so games to go he will move to anyplace that has playoff aspirations (1 mil kicker!!!) and will give him the PT to maintain his value in the free agent market..

a couple months in Houston aint the worst thing in the world.

Unfortunately, for you, I think Daryl Morey does, too…

sure.. all three.. we are getting killed by big 4′s and centers this year with Lee on the blocks anyway..

Retaining the Bord rights to Lee and Nate we will blow us out of the FA market.. All to give Bosh a max deal?

Im just not crazy about giving Bosh max money.. especially with Hill on the roster.. not that im sold on Hill..

kind of why i’ve been banging the trade Lee drum for 12 months..

he is gonna walk for nothing this off season anyway..

“A couple months in Houston aint the worst thing in the world”

Well it ain’t Somalia but have you been to Texas, let alone Houston?

What’s wrong with Houston?

I like Houston.. great strip clubs and steak houses..

I’m just fooling around though I’ll note, when I lived in AR I went to Texas three times (Houston once). The first time my car broke down and the mechanic told me he was wanted by the law but if a law man came into town he’d be shot on sight. The second time, in Houston, an old fashioned barroom brawl broke out while I was drinking a beer. They wrecked the place and while I didn’t get injured my buddy got cold cocked for no reason. The third time I was in Dallas and the car in front of me got jacked. I got the message. Whenever I hear secession talk from Texas I think go for it and good riddance. Lastly, I will never forget, during the whole English should be the only language ever spoken within the borders of the U.S. thing, a Texas Lawmaker standing up during a debate, waving a King James Bible in his hand and declaring if English was good enough for Jesus it should be good enough for Americans! I’m just saying…

What did Chad Ford call the rotational player cap slots, I think it was something along the lines of “ghost holds”. I hate it when you read these cap projections and writers do not take into consideration that your salary cap is based on an entire roster with, not who remains on your team, that is why you see the NY has more space than NJ mixup.

I like J. Hill’s game. He brings athleticism that D. Lee doesn’t bring. Also, he can knock down the shots that Jefferies can”t. It’s good to hear that he is playing hard in practice and showing a good game but I hope he gets some minutes to develop his game further. But let’s not put a ceiling on him. He can be as good as Jermaine O’Neal. It’s like people who are saying what Gallo and Chandler can and cannot be. Let these players go out and make a name for themselves.
By the way……Free Eddie Curry Jr.!!!!!!!

Tommy – thanks for some Jordan Hill updates. It must be comforting for some fans to know he is improving without seeing playing time.

I’d be all on the trade Lee badwagon if there was any reason to believe we’d get an offer that gives us anything back. I can’t see any team giving up anything substantial for a half year rental of a player that got 0 offers in the off season.

Yeah DEE, Most coaches or b-ball minds have learned that forcing your own team shoot the ball later than 10 secs or later int he clock does these things.

1. It forces the opponent to play defense and use up energy.
2. It means lesser positions and for a bad b-ball IQ team, that is a plus. lol
3. Shooting early with a short rotation uses up your own team’s energy

That is why many times shoot early in transition NOT as a normal course of half court offense.

The D’antoni system has many flaws from the start. Don Nelson perfected it and he still trying to put patch up the holes.

But if it needs to be explained that our team shoots better later in the system for this stubborn coach to get the pt and not feel it has anything to do with his system, then kudos to marketing!

I believe that by the end of the season players like Chris Bosh will convince their teams that they will not re sign with them. Rather than lose a Chris Bosh for nothing, Toronto will then trade Bosh for Lee and Jeffries. Same thinking holds for Nate and Curry. Lee, Robinson, Curry and JJ will not be moved for expiring contracts but will be moved in sign and trade deals IMO. There are potential UFA’s out there who could be candidates for a deal. Come on Donnie Walsh earn your money.

BTW DEE, Lee has NEVER shoot a jump shot in his life. It’s a SET SHOT! The soles must leave the floor for that to occur.

However, his set shot has improved considerably. As long as a 6 foot guy is not on him, he can surely get that off.

Do ya really like Bosh? For some reason I don’t care for his game. To get him with a Lebron would be ideal too. To get Bosh as our Superstar alone would bother me immensely.

I like the fact that he can elevate and alter shots but this dude works from the outside and fail to take it to the rim in critical moments. We had one of the best at that in the past and his name was Ewing! Patrick that is!

next year,with Jeffries being an expiring,do you thnk we will trade him before the season starts?

Have you never heard of a bar fight breaking out, a car getting stolen or a fugitive on the run in NYC?

test

Re. trading Lee, can someone clarify something for me ? If we do want to trade him can teams sign him long term directly from us. Either through a S&T or can he work out a deal with a team before a trade ? Im thinking that he prehaps has more value in a situation like this then in what would otherwise only be a season’s rental ? Are we going to get anything of substance for Lee’s services for the rest of the year ?

Good to hear JHill has been working out, although Mike Breen already said that him, Doug, and Landry work like crazy before every game on the broadcast with Brittenham. Hill just needs to be given some time, although personally I think there is no excuse for him not to be playing while a complete zero like Bender and JJ gets 40 minutes. Its just crazy to me, but if it all ends up fine then whatever.

I thought this was interesting…

Ben (NYC)

Hi Chris, love your chats…Who would win if the current Cleveland Cavaliers minus Lebron James vs the current New York Knicks?

Chris Sheridan
(1:25 PM)

I get into a somewhat similar debate with people all the time when they discount the Knicks’ chances of getting LBJ as a free agent. The question: Who is the better team: The current Knicks minus the two guys they’ll be forced to renounce to clear their max room (Harrington and Hughes), or the current Cavs minus LeBron. I say NY is better.

nothing can happen contract wise until mid July..

Lee is going free agency.. its going to happen.

If we retain his Bird Rights we only have 12 or so mil is cap space to go after a free agent this summer.

we need to renounce Leeas well in order to have enough space to go after a max contract free agent.

The Cav’s are over-rated. They’d be a lottery bound team if Lebron wasn’t on it. At least the Knicks have Gallinari, Lee and Chandler which is a younger group of guys than a bunch of aging and over-rated players the Cavs have.

Yessir. Hopefully Hill will be ready. In terms of supporting cast, people are starting to pay attention to Gallo and Chandler. Cleveland does not have a Gallo type player and I’d take Chandler over Anthony Parker. The only player on Cleveland I like, other than LeBron obviously, is Mo Williams.

If Curry and JJ are traded (along with Robinson and Lee) your payroll is down to under 10 million. If you sign a Chis Bosh or a Joe Johnson for 15 million you still have 25 million for a Lebron James type. The key is to move Curry, JJ, Lee and Robinson. This is the only way that I can see the numbers working.

couple cap questions:

I dont understand why we cant resign lee before Lebron for lets say 7 mil next season and then sign Lebron. I mean, once we sign him the cap hold has to go away right?

Also – what happens after we fill up our cap. Going on the above scenario… we have lee and LBJ and it fills up our whole cap.

Going forward that leaves us with
Lee, LBJ, Gallo, Chandler, Hill, TD, JJ, Curry, 2nd round draft pick.

That leaves open roster spots… how much can we spend to fill those holes?

Biggie: why do you say Lee cannot be signed and traded to another team prior to July 1st (with his approval, of course)? Tommy: good update on Jordan Hill.

Read this: http://nbaroundtable.wordpress.com/2009/11/25/2010-cap-space-new-york/

If nothing changes with the current roster, to be able to sign a max FA, Lee would have to sign a contract in which his first year is only about $6m. And remember that salaries can only go up about 10% a year in multi-year contracts, so don’t get too optimistic.

What I’m not clear on is if that even if the Knicks did that, would they then be able to use the mid-level or other types of exceptions, or if they would have to sitck to minimum salaries to fill out their roster.

I think we should stick wit JHill like the pacers are doin with roy hibbert!! he performed really well against the magic!! but hill isnt as raw as hibbert was and still kind of is because he needs more muscle.Hill really goes hard on D wen he is out there and hes got that smooth 18 footer. IMO with some more development i see him being more like KG jus because of that jumper and hustle!

Yeah but the Nets will have Devin Harris, Robin Lopez. Chris D-R, Yi Jianlan, Courtney Lee… and as much/slightly more cap space. Might be more attractive for Lebron. My guess is that if he feels confident that the Nets will be in Brooklyn within two years, then he goes to them.

Big differences between Hibbert and Hill. Hibbert is very smart. Hill, not so much. Did you hear Hibbert’s interview on NBAtv? He knows what’s up. When I hear Hill speak I find myself surprised that English is his first language.

he can be traded with his permission anything this season (after dec 25th) but can not sign a new contract until mid july 2010

thats the rule..

you dont get a mid level exemption unless you start the July off season period OVEr the salary cap.

If you are under the cap — like the knicks will be — you dont get a mid level exemption.

July 1 if we retain the Bird rights to Lee we have a 10.5-12 mil cap hold .. that willprevent us from negotiating with a max free agent.

Lee’s agent was looking for 12 mil this year.. no chance he accepts a pay CUT to sign with us right away.. /.// its way too risky to tie up space for Lee this summer..

it will severely handicap the plans Donnie has “worked so hard for”

thats a good link.. except i think the min salary is 850K making it around 5 mil for the 6 roster spot “ghost holders”

include Lee’s cap hold 150% x 7 mil (or 8 if we make the playoffs) and we are not in a position to sign a max player. period.

Then it’s definitely time to trade David Lee! Although if the defensive-minded Rockets GM Darryl Morey takes him and JJ/Curry ( as you suggest), I would be very suprised. The Knicks are better off dealing with dumb GMs.

Speaking of dumb GMs, the Blazers are shopping Steve Blake and ESPN’s TrueHoop rumors blog speculates on a JJ/Blake swap with the Knicks. Blake makes $4m (expiring). Do it, Donnie!

sub BOSH for LEPHONY JAMES

I think DW is absolutely correct in holding tight for LJ. Im sure like all the other GMs he’s righty thinking that its worth a shot. If James doesnt sign Im happy not to sign any of the other fee agents to a max deal. I think Wade stays in South Beach and none of the others inspire me as our ‘franchise’ guy. Given how nicely our young core is developing Id be happy, by what ever means, to convert some of our space to the young stud PG we so badly need. This assumes Lee signing at a reasonable price (<10m).

I tink that if Lebron signs with the Nets and the Knicks sign a max FA,the rivalry between the KNICKS and NETS would be bigger than any rivalry in NBA history.For the next 10 years it could become viscious.(especially if the NETS move to Brooklyn)

Trading Lee just for a few million in cap space is not a good deal. Why trade away 19 and 11 for nothing? Also Lee’s 19 and 11 is made playing in a slowed down system, those numbers go up when you get better players and up the tempo. Hill can’t just step in and get rebounds and score inside out of thin air. If we dump Lee to get Lebron then we take one step back to take 2 steps forward. Who’s gonna rebound? What’s the sense in getting Lebron if we’re gonna be the NY version of the Cavs? Why develop players to trade them for expirings? Let’s develop and keep players for once in our lives. There has to be a better way to get a max FA.

I’d only trade Lee to either dump Curry or in a sign and trade for a better 4. I think the focus should be trading Jeffries for an expiring (Trading Curry is a dream).

aok

Hill could still go either way, but the facts are that he’s a very athletic big with a pure jumper, and therefore a lot of potential, so there is still hope. Although many players like him do get PT in their rookie years, it is not that out of the ordinary for them to ride the pine for a year… And it doesn’t mean he is going to bust.

He still has the potential they thought he had when he was drafted, and we will see next year whether it can be turned into anything. D’Antoni just doesn’t trust raw rookies, unfortunately for hill (and for the fans).

People are saying we are getting dominated by big 4s and 5s this season but that is false…. Lee consistently outplays his opponent. He may let up a bunch of points, but the person guarding him lets up many more to him. As bad as you think he is on defense, the person who is guarding him is even worse. (when they are guarding him)

the problem with that is who in their right mind would trade an expiring straight up for JJ’s ridiculous contract. There has to be some sweetener in there, and it seems like that would have to be Nate or Lee, and im not sure how badly teams will want to take on a lot of money just to get 1 year of Nate, whereas Lee has consistently been playing at a very high level all season long. Maybe if we really want to keep Lee then we will trade JHILL, but 1st no teams know enough about him since he hasn’t played so that would be really risky, and 2nd if Hill is any good than the Knicks would be better off keeping him instead of Lee because it will save them a lot of money and they play similar positions. Its certainly a tough dilemna that DW has.

great point Jeff, I have been saying all year just to look at Dlee’s stats, which are easily top 3 and possibly best out of all centers. He presents such a large mismatch for pretty much all centers, and thats why his stats are as good as they are. He may give up 18 and 10 every game, but he ends up usually giving more than he gets as his stats show, unless he is playing against Al Horford who consistently dominates him.

its not just a few mil in cap space..

its the difference between not being a player at all int eh free agent market and potentially adding 2 big time players to the roster.

Would you rather keep this roster stat next year or get rid of Lee with Hill providing 60% (conservatively) of Lee’s offense and maybe 200% his defensive capability?

interesting you would dump Lee to get rid of Curry but not Dumpt Lee to get rid of JJ ( a 5 mil difference in cap)

Hill is the Five of teh future with this club.. he was drafted to be that and Donnie/D’Antoni are going to sink or swin with him as the Center in a “d’Antoni offense”.

I’d add Chandler in a deal to trade JJ. At least we’d be doing it to improve at the 3 (Lebron) but to lose an asset like Lee without sufficiently plugging that hole doesn’t do it for me. I don’t care for his defense but he’s improved his game by leaps and bounds. He used to get mostly dunks and now he goes 1-2 games without a dunk, that says he’s improved his skills around the rim. When a player in today’s NBA actually works on his deficiencies I’m not in favor of letting him go just for cap space.

i havent seen the analysis on Lee’s offensive production vs. his counter parts..

But the real issue is points in the paint. We are easily the worst team in teh league in allowing points in the paint.

We made Lopez and Yi look like Parrish and McHale.

If Lee cant pick it up on the defensive end — specifically guiarding the paint — then anything he gives is offensively is really just making up for his defensive deficiencies…

Im talking about 6 foot guards routinely having a free pass to the hoop with Lee as the Center.

unacceptable.

If Hill can give us 12 points a game and 10 boards and block 2 shots while intimidating players from driving the lane at will Ill take that trade off any day

Boozer and Korver for Harrington and Mobley works, and would result in huge savings to Utah. Maybe we can get them to throw back our 1st round pick.

I agree man, but Chandler has also improved leaps and bounds and is signed through next year on his rookie contract. He is to me the 2nd most untradeable asset after Gallo right now. The truth is as Biggie and many others have already elaborated on here it is going to be extremely difficult to resign Lee unless JJ or Curry is traded, and to do that Lee may have to be sacrificed. I don’t want to give up Lee for cap space either, but the alternative may be actually losing him for nothing come this summer. Very tough…

I’m concerned with what it is not what it will be and it is a few mill in cap space right now. It potentially is a free agent. If Crawford and Zach can be traded so can Jeffries if you add Chandler or a pick.

I wouldn’t trade Lee’s actual stats for Hill’s potential stats. I want to be a player for free agents I just think that trading JJ is the better route.

I would totally trade Lee to dump Curry because at least you can use Curry’s savings to replace Lee at the 4 while still chasing Lebron.

I think Hill needs at least a year of serious burn to show what he can do and D’Antoni doesn’t seem like a guy who likes playing newbies thus far.

that hasn’t really been the case in December though. We are the 10th ranked defense in the league for the month, and Dantoni has found a way around Lee’s deficiency by packing the paint and switching on all screens, which is a strength of Lee’s since he is much quicker than most other centers in the league. Lee’s stats speak for themselves, he is 1st out of all centers in the league in efficiency, and also averages over a steal per game which is top 5 among centers. We are forcing teams to beat us with the 3, which we cover really well because of our length in JJ, Gallo, Chandler, and Bender and I think I just read that we are top 10 in the league in 3pt fg% defense now.

Very tough indeed. I just think that Chandler can be replaced by Gallo. Hill might be able to replaced Lee but we have nothing to base it on thus far.

Hill might be able to REPLACE Lee (my bad)…

Our d in the paint is terrible though, and it is probably a problem that needs to be fixed. But we are winning the center battle. From 82games.com, our center versus opposing centers season average:

C 17.0 .557 5.8 55% 13.7 3.6 3.4 0.7 5.1 23.2 20.8

C 14.1 .559 6.0 60% 14.1 2.5 3.2 2.1 4.7 20.1 20.1

C 2.9 -.002 -0.1 -5% -0.3 1.1 -0.2 -1.4 -0.4 3.1 +0.7

Top is our center production, middle is opposing centers, and bottom is obviously the difference. Now you may be right in that what Lee gives away in the paint ends up hurting the team more than he helps it, but individually we win opposing matchups with centers, which that and the sg(Im not even sure who plays that for us) are the only 2 position battles that we win. Plus, I think our team defensive stats speak for themselves this month in my opinion.

exactly bro, thats why I think Hill needs to be playing now. You make a good point about Lee though that I completely agree with, its very tough to lose him just for cap space, but it may have to be done.

our interior defense is awful..

we are allowing close to 60% eFG% close in ..

oops and just to elaborate, from left to right numbers are

FGA eFG% FTA iFG Reb Ast T/O Blk PF Pts PER

its true, I guess its just sort of a tradeoff that happens to be working at the moment. If teams start hitting their 3′s though, we are completely screwed. Hopefully(doubtful) Hill will get a chance to start playing sometime this year, and will prove to be somewhat of an intimidator in the middle.

you could very easily lose him for nothing this summer.

Question for ya! If we can’t get Lebron for 2010 then does it make sense to keep the team basically the same minus does we get get rid of, play the young players and wait for 20111 when Curry and others contract is up.

I’m not sure who will be available but wouldn’t it be just as bad to use cap space in 2010 to get pseudo stars rather than waiting for real stars to become available?

[...] happen to agree with Tommy Dee, who wrote today that come next next year, Jordan will probably see lots of playing time. I don’t see him at [...]

True but if Jordan is to be our future at that position, shouldn’t he get that PT starting now?

That so true Biggie! However have you noticed the adjustment we have made packing it in the paint or having most players near the paint?

I can’t wait to see how we adjust to a team like the OKL Thunder! The have shooters and good slashers.

Luckily, teams lately haven’t been able to exploit us from the perimeter as much.

I give the coach credit for at least trying to do something different about the weakness you stated.

True. I just want a useful player for Lee, the cap space alone doesn’t do it for me

Quick question. If Lee is traded to a team that makes the playoffs and the Knicks do not make the playoffs, does he get the extra cool million? What if the knicks make it and the team we trade Lee to does not make it, does he get the million then?

Second question is kinda silly, since we probably can’t make the playoffs without Lee anyway.

I know this info may not be public, which is understandable, but does anyone know the answer to this question? (not just a guess)

thanks

Agree, you can’t describe Houston much better than that

Tracy McGrady and Chase Budinger for David Lee, Eddy Curry and Cuttino Mobley works…

For the offense that we run, Bosh fits the system pretty well. He’s not a wide body, but he can and does bang in the paint, his shot is pretty good and extends with range and he has a high BBIQ. If we pair him with LBJ (for example), we’d be a very successful team on both ends of the floor.

I don’t think he would be a prototypical inside player though. If the NYK are looking for a player like that, I would say Amare and Boozer would be a better fit. Would be nice if we could find a player more like Gasol. He would be a combination of inside and outside with skill.

only if he can help us win now

Why would Utah want Harrington, especially when you know he isn’t resigning there at the end of the year? And why would they throw a potential lottery pick away as well as Boozer? If it is money they are trying to save, why not just let Boozer walk at the end of the season.

Well now that arenas is suspended indefinitely and skip to my lou is off to miami, anybody for the following:

Duhon, Hughes, and Jeffries to the Wizards for M. Miller, M. James, Foye, and Oberto?

Or

Would the wizards do duhon, hughes, and jeffries for miller, james, d. stevenson, oberto, and a pick?

Or

Duhon, Hughes, Jeffries, and Chandler for Caron, Miller, and Stevenson?

All three have to be intriguing to knicks fan. The wizards did say at one point that they wanted hughes and chandler for the 5th pick, plus they wanted jeffries at one point too.

I thought the NBA still had to rule on Mobley?

That would be a great trade for Houston. As much as I’m enjoying this season I almost don’t want to see Lee traded even if we are dumping Curry too. I almost want to be irrational and play out the season with Lee and watch him take money elsewhere next season.

Personally, i’m split on that trade. I’d rather not lose lee, granted, if it were at the expense of losing curry, i’m all for it. Then again, I still don’t know if houston would want to take on curry if they could pursue lee in the off-season to complement yao. Personally, I was thinking of hughes, JJ, and harrington for mcgrady and cap filler.

Agreed. The only way a boozer deal gets done at this point is if Lee is involved and if any picks are involved, it’s from our end.

Interior defense doesn’t entirely rest on Lee though. yes, he isn’t so good, but part of it is that he is usually playing next to a small forward, or JJ (whatever he is, he’s not a post defender).

Second, we have guys like duhon and galo who are easy to get around and into the paint.

check out this site biggie. http://www.82games.com/0910/0910NYK5.HTM

Net production by position: Center and SG are the only 2 positions with a positive number on our roster.

I agree that david Lee is no better then an average post defender.. but i will not agree that his effort is lacking at all… And whenever you point that out, i will point out that whoever is guarding him looks much worse.

For example… you would think we would want a real young center like, let’s say roy hibbert, in the middle. But lee made him look like a “lumbering dinosaur ” (heard that on espn.) when they matched up.

I’m not disagreeing with your shots at his defense, i just think this is a clear case of the positives significantly out-weighing the negatives. And how much longer can you complain about our awful defense when we have been in the top 10 for a significant stretch?

And i also like that we are NUMBER ONE in the league in defending the three.

Here’s another fun stat i found: EWA, a hollinger combo of PER and usage/minutes, (PER only looks at per minute production), produces this set of players at the top, in order.

LeBron
Kobe
bosh
wade
durant
melo
duncan
nash
dirk
roy
dwight
paul
Randolph
Lee

Pretty good company.

How about lee’s defensive rebound rate of 28 compared to Lopez’s 20?

Again, i’m just saying that while he may not be a good post defender, he is extremely potent in several other areas.

Roy Hibbert is a lumbering dinosaur..

Haha ok no arguement there…

so all that aside..

how much are you willing to commit to Lee and would you retain him with the understnading that you would lose a shot a lebron.

its probably a loaded question considering how much you like Lee .. but decisions have to be made.

Good question… after all my babbling, that is probably the only relevant question.

I would give him the longest contract allowable by the CBA, and stuff the back of it as much as we can. Maybe something that starts at 9 and ends up at 13? I don’t know the specific rules.

Correct me if i’m wrong, but if we trade jeffries we have enough for Lee and Lebron… And i think that if we really want to, we can get that done before the deadline no questions asked.

If you’re asking straight up, Lee or Lebron, and i can’t have both, i obviously chose lebron, but it’s a double edged sword because Lee might be the biggest reason he would decide to come here.

And i like to think that my analysis of Lee is fair and not biased based on my “liking” him. Galo is my favorite knick.

My super-positive stance on Lee is a combination of me actually thinking he is becoming an amazing player, and the fact that i tend to see all the bright spots when it comes to the knicks, and talk about them more then the dark spots. (if we could get rid of curry we could realistically win a championship next year, but that is not going to happen, and i’m not going to make extensive posts about it haha.)

this is crazy talk….i would take lee on my team over cbosh in a second!!!!

why
dlee is one of the most durable players in the league
no knee problems…nothing

second: if hes an allstar this year hes considered to be one of the top 10 pfs in the league

third: he knows the system…knows what to expect from dantoni

forth: yea hes a little weak on the offense…but lee is an above average starting pf…you can get him at 10 per…save the 5 you wud spend on bosh and sign a starting defensive minded center and get a pg with the mid level.

defense*

That’s not the problem, if the Knicks retain David Lee’s rights they could jeopardize the whole plan. Right now the Knicks do not have enough capspace to retain his rights and enter the free agent market with enough money to offer a max contract.

6 years is the max with bird rights and 10% raises..
so 6 years 71 million– with the first year at 9..

assuming the numbers at
http://nbaroundtable.wordpress.com/2009/11/25/2010-cap-space-new-york/

that leaves you about 15 mil on a 55 mil cap which is NOT enough to sign a max free agent…

so get use to this roster because you’ll see it next year.. with a minimim salary point guard running the show.
.

tahts assuming you get Lee to take 9 when he is on the open market getting offers starting at 12 mil a year from teh Nets.

But David Lee > Amare Stoudemire considering the fact that Amare is injury-prone.

David Lee at $10 mill or Chris Bosh at $16 mill?

This question is a luxury the Knicks can’t afford, they don’t have enough capspace for LeBron James + Chris Bosh right now. If they did – I’d give LeBron the right to choose his teammate.

Dude, I agree with with everything except for the fact ” above average PF” _Lee has not played power foward since the 07-08 season…yes he can take advantage of taller/slower players on offense but look what happens when he is going against players of the same mold he is made from, his advantage is gone and yes he can rebound his ass off but you are going to get a lot of rebounds when your not contesting shots….when was the last time he fouled out of a game?

Why do I keep reading from some of you guys that teams would not trade for what may be a rental player!! Guy are you kidding me?? how many times can I tell you guys that a win now team on the cusp will roll the dice to win a championship!! The mavs, denver even the griz who need to make a push for the playoffs just to keep a pulse among fans! The lakers need defense in the front court these are win now teams not rebuilding teams.

There is no build for the future these teams are all in right now!! You cant apply knick strategy to these teams because these are wining high end teams who dont live int the future, not the nets tanking the season to get John Wall.
Lee N8 Harrington even JJ with his hard work have value!! 1rd picks mean nothing to these teams because they already have there stars and are in need of known assets not a shot in the dark draft pick.

I thought that’s all that there is in NYC.

I drove a city bus in Harlem and I can’t begin to tell y’all the shit I saw!!!!!

maybe so, but he has been playing very well lately. He put a beating on “franchise center” Brook Lopez earlier in the year. And he just dominated Dwight Howard too, putting up 26 and 8 and forcing Howard to foul out in the Indiana upset. The point is Lee accentuates his dinosaurness(i Know just made up my own word) and makes him look even more awkward than he actually is, much like lee does to pretty much every center not named Al Horford.

Good point Blackwood, but most of the people are saying this about trades that would involve teams giving up young assets, which is tougher to part with for just a 1 year rental. But you make a really good point, it is all about finding a team looking for that final piece and using one of our expiring contracts. But seriously, who wants to take on JJ or Curry? JJ’s is a little more reasonable, but no team in this economy will pay a complete bum 12+ million to sit on a bench. Even the Rockets aren’t that desperate to get rid of Tmac.

I think he learned that shot from ZBo. It looks exactly like his. Since Zbo is effective with that shot and it’s easy to shot, it doesn’t use a lot of energy it was perfect for Dlee’s game which is mostly below the rim.

There are so many easy type shots a player can take and be successful with, they are high percentage shots and require little energy. I think one problem with today’s player is they have to have a flashy move over a fundamentally sound move. It has ruined the game.

As Alan Hahn has noted, in his blog on hoopshype Pete Mickeal, a forward for FC Barcelona, is claiming that the Knicks have inquired about him. It could be nothing, could be them anticipating an open roster spot after Mobley, or there could be a major shakeup in the works. Im guessing its nothing but who knows how much truth there is to it. Very interesting either way.

Ok, but if we trade jeffries that is 22 million… right?

And even if we only have 15 mil to spend… how will that lead to the same roster? 15 mil is 15 mil… if it’s not lebron it’s still enough for a very good player. That would mean we could sign another player as good as Lee, and have 6 million to spare on another… That’s not the same roster.

Unless i misunderstood you, it seems like you are saying that having 15 mil of cap space AFTER signing lee, means we will be left with the same roster…

i don’t understand that. The max is going to start at 17-18ish, so having 15 mil in space after signing Lee means we have a lot of room… maybe not lebron room, but that’s why we have to trade jj.

I don’t think that’s true. The Jazz are looking to get under the cap and save money FOR THIS SEASON, so they need to shed Boozers contract before this deadline, not at the end of the season. Cuttino Mobleys contract is $10 million in free, insurance backed money. Having Al not being there after this year is a positive for Utah. That $10 million in cap savings is certainly worth something, maybe a late lottery pick.

yeah thats my bad.. you have 15 mil free to spend..

on what i dont know.. Joe Johnson? probably not enough .. no way enough for Wade..

we would be pretty set in the front court in terms of minutes.. so Boozer is out.. probably not enough anyway..

you could MAYBE do a sign and trade for a PG.. but who? .. maybe you give 10 to Ray Allen? Randy Foye?

My point is you end up going all in on Lee and giving up on ANY attempt to lure Lebron.. and wind up committed to Lee as your 5 long term.. which i dont think is a title wining proposition.

outside of Lebron Im at a loss on who i would want at that lower level..

i think even people who dont like would say 9 mil is a cheap price considering what the Paul Milsapps of the world got..

I would suspect Lee’s agent would want to start the free agent conversation at the LaMarcus Aldridge extension..

5 years 65 mil.. starting at 11 per..

It’s not giving up ANY attempt on luring lebron, though, because trading jeffries would more than solve that problem.. I feel like you are ignoring that aspect of the situation.

And more than 15 mil for Joe Johnson? No thanks…

Any any good player you want to put next to lebron is going to cost at least 10 mil, and make it difficult to sign him without trading JJ.. it’s not like Lee is the only one in the category. But who else in the league would you rather have as a 10 million dollar sidekick; out of who is available? without someone who is worth 10 million dollars, this team isn’t good enough to lure lebron, anyway.

dont we have enough forwards.. perhaps Donnie can look at Point guards on that team..

oh wait.. never mind.

If we trade jeffries we can give him that 11 mil and still have room for lebron, and more. And then if we do that curry buyout, that’s another 2.5.

name another player who you would rather have at 11 mil next to lebron.. (of the available ones)

i think if I have Lebron in the fold if Im Donnie I can convince a GUARD like Johnson for example to come here at a discount..

you are essentially trading Lee for a shot at Lebron. going all in with Lee.

In Poker you dont want to get pot committed unless you know you have the strongest hand.. except if you are on the short stack.. and desperate..

we can agree to disagree.. but i think long term having Lee as the franchise Center isnt a winning hand..

The conflicting point in our discussion is that i am assuming we would be re-signing Lee after jeffries is already traded. Obviously, you don’t do it if it kills your financial ability to sign lebron..

JJ JJ JJ JJ JJ JJ… it’s the key to everything we’re hoping for, because without trading him, there will be no one significant to put next to lebron.

You think Johnson wouuld take 7 or 8 mil a year to play with lebron? No way. He turned down somethin like 15 last year.

And i would much rather have lebron and lee then lebron and johnson, of course that is up for debate.

im not sure I see anyone on the horizon lining up to take JJ off our hands free and clear without a significant kicker..

id rather go to war with Lebron, Jordan Hill and Gallo up front than Lee Gallo and Hill/Chandler

no question moving JJ changes the equasion but i still am not convinced Lee is a title winning center.

I think JJ (joe johnson) would take 12 or 13 to play with lebron for sure..

really?? you’d take Lee over Joe Johnson for the same price?

JJ (the real one) is a legit 3 time all star back court player.

i wonder how many first round draft picks we’d get fined for trying that.

Could he be bought out If every Knicks fan was willing to kick in $5 or $10 . . . ?

Thanks ds2488….Oh trust me I understand about EC thats why I did not include him on the list, in fact I rather keep him and let him come off the payroll next year. see I would only really want LJ or that beast on the suns, if we got ether one i would roll with that and the young guys we have and the young guys we can draft if we trade our assets and then in 2011 go for the big score again and a partner for who ever we sign in 2010! there is no need to over react in 2010 when if we play our cards right we can be a force in 2010 and then finish the mission in 2011 because theres super talent in the FA market in 2011.

I never looked at it that way and great pts.

I get your pt but what if we can’t get Lebron, do you see Bosh as being piece to the puzzle here? That’s where I have an issue with just getting Bosh alone.

I don’t watch Bosh a lot but the times I have, I am not too impressed with his game.

haha biggie, you don’t seem to grasp the DW/Dantoni philosophy- only 1 guard and all forwards. No centers allowed. Lol. You can never have too many forwards on this team.

well said Blackwood. I agree completely.

Update….The New York Knicks have changed there name to The New York Forwards!! the second option was the New York Pasta But Gall likes Puerto Rican food more now that he has been in NYC lol

They are going to TRY to trade Jeffries for an expiring contract later in the season when a team that needs a defensive piece for a serious championship push is desperate. (trading Curry is hopeless).

If the can’t do that, they might consider negotiating buyouts for both Jeffries and Curry for a few million under the amount owed next year. That would lower the amount against the Knicks cap and allow both players to go to other teams and get new contracts that would make up the difference plus a little bit of a sweetener. Both sides win (especially Curry because he’s not not playing here)

That would give us room for Lee and Max contract. However, IMHO trading Lee over pipe dreams about signing Lebron would be borderline retarded. That would make it at least 50-50 (and perhaps even worse) that the Knicks would not sign Lebron and also lose Lee and set the team back another few years. RETARDED!!!!!

Doing it my way (resigning Lee) makes the the worst case scenario that we go with Lee, Chandler, Gallo, Hill and Douglas for 2010-2011 and sign a very good but not Max Contract player to add to the mix next year (perhaps a SG). That will make us a solid playoff team for 2010. Then after Jeffries and Curry come off the following year, we sign a max contract in 2011 and compete for a championship.

ill believe that someone wants Jeffries when the trade is reported.

i just dont see us moving him without a serious sweetener

Going for Lebron is the plan. Its not “retarded”: . When you ahve a chance to get one of the best players to come into the league over the past 20 years you have to go for it..

If Lee really WANTS to sign here he can do it as a Free Agent.. We dont need his Bird rights in order to do it. And retaining those rights — as it stands today — means relinquishing those rights.

If we talk to Lebron and he says I want to play with lee then go get him.. I’d rather the extra space to form the team around what Lebron wants.. not handicap him into having Lee as our starting five when Hill MAY be able to give us 70% of his offensive contribution.

things will come together sooner rather than later and the picture will become clear… It is clearer today than it was even this summer.

** retaining those rights means cap strapping us in the summer –