“…Some of us are too dense, too self-involved, to ask our parents and our grandparents about the meaning of life. David Lee asked.
“He told me he got joy from giving to others,” the grandson said.
At the funeral, the grandson heard their Presbyterian pastor tell how the 92-year-old Lee had requested meetings 12 months in advance — “faith-related questions,” the grandson said.
Knicks officials have come to realize that the work ethic, the sense of fairness, came from somewhere. When Lee was a rookie out of Florida, he took his cue from the way Larry Brown listed him as the sixth power forward. But by last season, Lee upgraded himself into more than a rebounder whose only offense was putting the ball back.
“We knew he was a good player — but limited,” Coach Mike D’Antoni said Wednesday. “We made a mistake, to be honest.”
Last summer, Walsh renewed Lee’s contract for one season, and braced for a bitter reaction.
“It was a business meeting — the nicest I have ever had,” Walsh said.
Going into Friday’s home game against the Lakers, Lee has played in all 41 games, leads the Knicks with 19.1 points and 11.2 rebounds per game, and is second with 138 assists; lately D’Antoni has been running the offense through Lee, at center. Lee is, put bluntly, the heart of this team.
Everybody knows the Knicks are hoping to sign LeBron James after this season. The question James should ask is, “Is David Lee staying?” Walsh hinted on Wednesday that there could be room for Lee even if they sign a superstar…”
I tell younger people all the time that the benefits of learning from people with more life experience, not fighting against them, will help them so much in the long run. Lee is an example of that, it seems. Someone, when you’re at a young age, needs to pull you through in life and put you on the right path and make a connection, and help give you the ability to make the right decisions in life.
Of course, we know because we all have been there, doing things on your own is a natural reaction that comes with reaching adolescence and adulthood.
It has very little to do with money, it has more to do with people taking advantage of time spent. After all, without role models, where would we all be? I still have them.
The story is a very well-written one, but at the end of the day, nice guy or not, the Lee situation could be the biggest decision this franchise has made in over a decade.
Whatever the decision: to keep him, trade him, or risk losing him for nothing, Donnie Walsh has to do his best to get it right.
Everyone knows from a basketball standpoint that Lee is the type of player every team needs. But nothing, besides injury, kills a franchise more than an ill-advised, overvalued contract.
Knicks fans know that all too well.
““He told me he got joy from giving to others,” the grandson said.”
So THAT’S why he is so generous to people driving the lane!
It all makes sense now.
lmao!
Today Larry Brown would be whining like a litle “b’ is Lee played no defense like he does today. Lee surely has improved his offensive skills over the off-season and he does rebound but his defense is non existent!
He surely didn’t learn that at FL!
I was wondering why an article like this had not come out right after Lee’s grandfather passed. but it is for reasons like this (intangibles, leadership, good teammate) that i think Lee is worth even more than his basketball value. he is a good person, and he has proven that he is dedicated to getting better. Lee is a very intelligent basketball player, and it really shows on the court (his assists this year are even more showing). i know he is a subpar defensive player, but i think he can become better. will he ever be a very good defensive player? no, probably not. but i think it would be foolish to not resign him.
you need players who play with heart, and who are good teammates and smart players. and lee is certainly one of them. id rather have him than bosh or amare (especially at 3 mill less than those other guys). no, hes not as good. but i think its closer than some people think, and he offers intangibles that those guys cant ever offer, and for that, he makes it enjoyable to watch him play and root for him.
Nice article but Tommy’s comments are even more interesting.
“The Lee situation could be the biggest decision this franchise has made in over a decade” I agree (let’s not forget Eddy Curry’s contract though). The Knicks can’t afford to lose him for nothing – which is why they should have resolved David Lee’s contract situation last summer in my opinion (sign-and-trade or long-term contract).
If the Knicks find a way to trade Jared Jeffries with Al Harrington or Nate Robinson, I think they should keep David Lee and retain his rights. If they can’t trade Jared Jeffries, then they will have to trade Lee. Unless David Lee agrees to resign with the Knicks even if they renounce his rights but that’s a huge gamble. The Cavaliers could offer David Lee more money and hinder the negociations between Donnie Walsh, LeBron James and David Lee.
Jared Jeffries is the x factor.
“i know he is a subpar defensive player”
The understatement of the year. You are too kind.
“you need players who play with heart…”
He has 0 pride on the defensive end. Where’s the heart in that?
“and he offers intangibles that those guys cant ever offer”
His defense is literally intangible.
LMAO at the pic btw. That must have took eons to find. Good job Tommy, that’s dedication right there.
All jokes aside, rest in peace to Grandfather Lee.
seriously.
No doubt – and my condoleances to D. Lee.
that pic was taken in the 4th q.of mondays mlk day game
HaS – David Lee’s not Anthony Mason. David Lee’s not Patrick Ewing. Get over it. No disrespect but why do you CONSTANTLY focus on the negative side? Why can’t you say “Wow David Lee came back from his Grandfather’s funeral – played 48 minutes and hit the game-winner in Philly”? Why can’t you give him credit or at least try to put things into perspective?
No shots – it is just a question.
mucha was it that game or the one after where we were in the comments section balling on Lee’s defensive effort when he was near a trip[le double.. we didnt even KNOW he was close to a triple double until we saw the stat sheet.
No to speak for HaS but when I watch the game i get so completely fustrated by his work on the defensive end that anything he does on teh other end is overshadowed.. for someone watching the game not the stats sheet.
and i know u watch the games.
“No to speak for HaS but when I watch the game i get so completely fustrated by his work on the defensive end that anything he does on teh other end is overshadowed”
I agree to a certain extent but I wouldn’t go that far.
His lack of D is frustrating (and inexcusable) but without David Lee… we’re the New York Nets. At least he plays hard on one end of the court lol.
My whole point is, I think we should give him credit for his offense as much as we criticize him for his (lack of) defense.
every year he has improved his offense by alot,maybe after four years he will start to workon his defense.by his 8th year he will be the best ever in the nba………….YEAH RIGHT!
Because I at one time (before I started commenting here obviously, I’ve only been here since this past offseason) I was _avi_’s biggest supporter. He doesn’t take pride in his defense. He gives 0 effort and it is absolutely disgusting to watch, which I have been for 4+ years.
There’s a thin line between love and hate.
Fair enough, I was a big David Lee fan too. Obviously I hate his lack of D but I think he deserves credit considering what he does night in night out for this team. He doesn’t take pride in playing defense, but he’s good enough to make up for it offensively. No excuses though, I’ll criticize his D after every game but seriously, Lee plays hard enough to outscore his opponents on a regular basis despite his lack of D.
But when his offense is not better than his defense… man, it’s tough to watch.
“He doesn’t take pride in playing defense, but he’s good enough to make up for it offensively. No excuses though, I’ll criticize his D after every game but seriously, Lee plays hard enough to outscore his opponents on a regular basis despite his lack of D.”
Why give him a pass when it would be so easy for him to just take pride on that end of the floor and give MINIMAL effort? Nah that’s ok.
With his EZ-Pass policy in the paint he would have to outscore his man and anyone who drives into the paint. The center, the backup center and all the point guards and shooting guards who drive into the lane.
He’d have to average 45 points a night to make up for his defense.
When did I give him a pass?
It was theknicksblog revolution last season when I kept saying that he he was a HUGE liability on the defensive end lol. Listen man… I LED THE CRUSADE!
“He’d have to average 45 points a night to make up for his defense”
Oh come on – you know this team minus David Lee wouldn’t have more than 10 wins.
His lack of D is disgraceful. Always said it. But give him credit for what he does night in night out on the offensive end. And I’m not only talking about the fact that he’s a good scorer. He’s an efficient scorer and a good passer who’s willing to pass the ball. That is hard to find.
Minus Lee but plus who?
I dont think HaS meant you were giving him a pass.. you’ve always been honest..
EZ Pass refers to the drive thru mentality every opposing guard has to going into the paint and getting and easy bucket.. With Lee standing there with the crocodile arms
looking around for the ref to see if he got a foul called against him.
I agree that it would take 30 plus a nite to make up for all the mistakes he makes defensively..
Didnt I count 25 defensive lapses that one night? like 14 in the first half? and Rip Hamilton taking it to the hole like he was driving down teh Garden State parkway… while Lee just stands there
“Rip Hamilton taking it to the hole like he was driving down teh Garden State parkway… while Lee just stands there”
LMAO I remember that play… man were we RANTING after the game lol.
I think the fact that we’re over 40% shows that Lee’s peformances have been conductive to winning. At the end of the day, I think his offense makes up for his lack of defense and even more. But maybe the Knicks would flirt with the 50% plateau if he actually wanted to play a little bit of defense.
We’re 0-2 when Lee records a near triple double.
Charles Barkley, Kenny Smith and Ernie Johnson all said they believe that David Lee should be an All Star. Two great former NBA players said that David Lee is the second best Center in the East. They said it wasn’t even a close race. I would say that is a pretty nice compliment for Lee. I hope he makes the team.
It’s a great compliment to _avi_, you’re right.
On second thought Lee would fit right in, he plays All-Star Game level defense all year round!
ok, i think we all know that David Lee’s defense stinks but can you give it a rest for a little while…geez lol
At a certain point, the fact that Lee is helping the team win should overshadow his defensive liabilities.
Everyone has an opinion, some are more reasonable that others, I understand Has and x-man dissing Lee because of his defense, but I don’t understand how they can ignore his impact on the win/loss column, which is the bottom line.
Come on guys, EVERYBODY can put out effort on defense. Didn’t ya learn that while playing this game?
Everything is relative but there is NO EXCUSE for missing defensive assignments time and time again.
Lee would have never gotten off the bench if he did that in FL.
I keep saying Stop making excuses for ANY player that don’t hustle and play defense.
Now it may be that a player puts out real effort and still be ineffective in that players like Kobe can make you look bad even if you try. Yet, put out the effort makes players like Kobe work harder than not putting out on D.
If Lee is made to pay attention and show pride in defending, he will be that much a better player. That is what some of ya are missing. We want him to be better and help the team.
The weak link on defense hurts the entire team! YIKES!
If you watch the games, Lee is always out of position on rotations and etc, rarely contest shots…but he does rebound….. We need more from Lee and I know he can do it better than he does now.
“At a certain point, the fact that Lee is helping the team win should overshadow his defensive liabilities.”
“I understand Has and x-man dissing Lee because of his defense, but I don’t understand how they can ignore his impact on the win/loss column, which is the bottom line.”
The Knicks have averaged what 30 wins since he’s been here? I’m looking at the bottom line. He’s not worth 12 million. Period.
“The Knicks have averaged what 30 wins since he’s been here? I’m looking at the bottom line”
That’s unfair.
The past has nothing to do with the present in his case, what is important is what he is doing this year. He’s the leader and the best player of a 0.415 team – that is what his value should be based on. What he did 1, 2 or 3 years ago is not relevant even though the facts show that he has never been a franchise player (obviously).
I think David Lee’s worth $10 million. He’s not a franchise player but he’s a legitimate All-Star candidate. $10 mill is a fair deal.
Mucha .. 415 ball is 35 wins.
I know.
But look at the starting line-up. David Lee plays with the worst starting PG in the NBA, one of most useless/least talented players in the entire league, a 22-year old player coming off ankle surgery and a 21-year old italian player.
Dude, I like Lee except his defense but you have to admit that Lee puts up offensive numbers on bad team!
He is numbers is also helped by playing against slow centers.
Remember, when we used to elevate players on winning teams as special?
I can’t put a person on the special list when ?I know he can help a team by playing better defense.
The Knicks would undoubtedly have a better record if he actually tried to play defense every now and then.
I agree with the notion that Lee’s success is based on the fact that he’s playing out-of-position. Which means that the Knicks will always have to pay for his offensive prowess. The fact that he doesn’t want to play D doesn’t help.
But I don’t think the “Lee puts up offensive numbers on bad team” argument is valid. He doesn’t need to have the ball in his hands to be effective – he’s not a ball-hog. If he had better players around him, I think it would help his stats and obviously make his team better.
in short.. the debate is whether he is a complimentary role player.. third or fourth option on a championship team or a legitimate 1A or number two guy making near max dollars and eating up 25% of your cap
Yeah. I think he’s a 3rd option on a championship team.
I think Manu Ginobili money’s a fair deal. $10 mill per year.
Who’s the 2nd option? Danilo Gallinari hopefully, or a $15 million guy in 2011.
funny you brng up Manu..
There’s a guy who took less money and a lesser role to stay in a winning situation..
he signed for 6 years 52 million in 2004
first year was 6.6 mil… he was 27 years old when he signed.
just so no one accuses me of apples to oranges..
the cap in 2004 was 44 mil.. next year shoulr be 54 (22% higher..)
$6.6mil x 1.22 = $8.05 .. thats right where i think he should sign.. not 10.. not 12…
I thought Manu had a bigger contract.
I think $10 mill for Lee = Fair deal
Manu is in the last year of that deal he signed in 2004
BUT MANU WAS ACTUALLY IN A WINNING SITUATION,DAVID LEE IS NOT
HE’D BE IN A WINNING SITUATION IF LEBRON OR DWYANE WADE SIGN HERE – WHICH IS WHY IS SAID THAT LEE DESERVES MANU GINOBILI MONEY AKA 3RD OPTION ON A CHAMPIONSHIP TEAM MONEY.
He should be an energy guy ,just like nate,all offense no defense.Him and nate should sit on the bench and when we need a big man energy LEE,small man NATE
lmao. I was afraid they moved the bottom line on me!
We’re talking about what Lee needs to do to make himself better and the team better and some see this as killing the guy!
I don’t excuse anyone from not putting out the effort to help their team on defense. No excuses period!
I was gonna sit in the fox hole on this thread.. plenty of land mines.. I t could go one for 300 comments..
But one thing I could not resist..
I agree with Tommy that committing money long term is a VERY VERY imprtant decision and could easily affect the team for 5 years.. in terms of flexibility and budget..
And I obviosuly agree that Donnie has to get these decisions right.. Just like the draft last year (whoops..land mine)
I really sincerely dont think Lee is irreplaceable and I dont think letting him walk would be utterly catastrophic… Especially with the F/A class that is out there this year..
Deciding NOT to pay Lee 10 or 12 mil a year (if someone like NJ comes up with that kind of MOney) just means that we have that much more cap space to go after a max free agent .. If letting Lee walk because we cant afford 12 mil means we have a better shot at Lebron then its a no brainer..
It is also a no brainer to call his bluff and renounce his rights.. at 10.5-12(if we make the playoffs) in cap hold we could very wel be capped out of the Lebron derby — assuming Donnie holds onto JJ to keep his coach happy and make a playoff run– or (more likely) gets no real offers for him in the next 28 days.
If Lee is true to his word and really wants to be part of basketball in NYC he will gladly accept a five year deal starting at 8 mil and a total value of around 50 mil going 8,9,10,11,12 in money.. give him a player option on the 4th and 5th year so he can opt out..
Same thing for Nate.. (so you know Im not choosing sides) 5 years 28 mil starting at 4 mil (4, 4.5, 5.2, 6.5, 7.5) with layer options after year 4 and 5..
or 4 year deals..
Overpaying is death when you are under the cap.. thats why i may end up second guessing this whole “get under the cap” strategy… but ignore that for another thread.
I agree with most of what you said, but I think it’s way too early to imply that we made the wrong draft choice this year. Hill has only played out 10% of his rookie contract.
I also woudn’t expect or believe that Lee should take any type of discount next year. It’s his first big contract and he should get the most $$ he can. There’s nothing wrong with that. As a matter of fact, it’s the way it should be. Players that already made their big money in the NBA take discounts for certain playing situations not guys getting their first mega deals. I want him to stay, but can’t blame him for leaving for the dough…I’d do the same.
I said this in another thread, but If Hill becomes Amar’e and Gallinari turns into Nowitzki then F*** LeBron, with a capital “F”!
I’ll take my Kool-Aid in Cherry.
If you need that to happen, I think that you may die of thirst
no kool aid for you! lol
But seriously, It’s possible that if Gallo stays healthy and continues to develop as an NBA player he might have actually been the right pick in that draft….and yes I mean that he might turn out better than eric gordon and brooke lopez. Last season that scenario seemed impossible to me. How quickly things can change. Like I said, Hill has only played out 10% of his contract. A lot can still happen….but asking for them to become Amar’e and Dirk is a little too much. I know you were just kidding
I agree that Gallo is a potential star! However, a big man like Lopez is hard to find and teams usually would luv to build around a dude like that.
But it may take longer to see what Hill can do since some thinks thinks Coach has the right to be more concerned with wins this year over getting our young players PT and planning for 2010 and beyond.
We waited for years for this opportunity and we will allow this short sighted coach to focus more on wins that the master plan?
yeah EFF LEBRON!
i didnt really imply that the draft was a bust.. But that we’ve had that debate fiercely and its a land mine.. The jury is still out.. But no question Donnie HAD TO nail this draft.. you ahve to agree with that.
Look.. Lee will make a LOT of money as an NBA player.. MAYBE even more than his grandfather ever made.
DOnnie GAVE him 5 mil more than he really had to this season. He will likely get a 40-50 mil offer from us this off season and MAY get 80 mil from another team.. (the Nyets?>)
So lets not cry for David Lee… His Bentley will not run out of gas anytime soon. The model WorldP Poker Tour girlfriend can shop til she drops..
He can either Hang with D Wright in Nobu every night and make 40 mil with his hot blonde wife or go somewhere else and make maybe twice that.. or on second thought .. if he signs with the Nyets he might be able to have his cake and eat it too..
So no one needs to cry for David Lee not getting big money.
im done i swear..going out to watch hoops and the all star selections..
Ill read Jeff’s 1500 word love letter rebuttal later tonite.
no shots man.. u know i love the passion.
“Ill read Jeff’s 1500 word love letter rebuttal later tonite.”
You know it’s coming! It’s even more reliable than hateful diatribe.
Well the Cavs beat the Lakers again…without mo Williams. Good game! I’m not sure how they will take it out on our Knicks tomorrow!
Still collecting money for the limo to take Kobe to AC!
This Laker team does not impress me – but the fact that they lost tonight will hurt the Knicks tomorrow.
Pau Gasol, Lamar Odom and Andrew Bynum are marshmallow soft and Derek Fisher is one of the worst starting point guards in the NBA. The Duhon-Fisher match-up should be interesting!
Dude, They didn’t look great to-nite I agree but I’ve watch this team all year and they are the real deal. They have played most of their games at home so now they have to play on the road more.
I’m telling ya, if this team is healthy playoff time, they will gallop to the championships.
Also, Fisher is getting older but this dude is clutch usually when it counts, DF surely isn’t one of the worse pt guards. He’s one of the smarter pt guards in this league and when it comes playoff time, he delivers. If you think he is bad then Duhon should be in the F-League!
Lee is a poor defender, but it is kind of crazy that 90% of some people’s comments are focused on how awful he is, when he is far and away our best player.
I don’t have a rebuttal because i agree with your assessment on whether or not we should keep him, but it is unfair to constantly be hating on him on every single thread.
He might have his defficiencies, but over the last month he has 21.3 ppg, 13.1 rpg, and an amazing 4.6 apg…
Those numbers are absolutely rediculous, and even though his defense is poor, his positives are by far the biggest positives on our team. He is our most consistent player.
You guys give him absolutely no credit whatsoever, (he, being our best player, along with our coach and GM.)
He’s our best offensive player.
Happy?
His defense is beyond poor. It’s non-existent.
practically the whole team does not play defense, yet you continue to hammer david, who has never been a good defensive player. hes skinny and undersized clearly to be playing center. (theres this thing called genetics….). yeah he won a slam dunk contest, but to expect him to block shots is idiotic. instead of constantly hammering david, who has worked so hard to improve something that he actually can fix, his beautiful mid-range game, attack walsh for leaving mike with one legitimate pg, who imo is the worst starting pg in the game. stop bashing lee…… the guy is averaging 19 and 11 PLAYS PRACTICALLY THE ENTIRE GAME….. jeez maybe if he got some rest. david is not a good defensive player, never has been, never will be, but cut the crap he continues to work on his game constantly, log huge minutes, play out of position, and be a hell of a teammate. he was the 29th pick in the draft…… his game has flaws, as it should but he is still a great player and he is an all star this year at least he should be. huge david fan here obviousally.
and we have the script for the “Leave David Alone” video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc
its just annoying. stop saying he doesnt play defense every day. his game has flaws, like 99 percent of the other plays. defense is his weakness, we get it. why not look at the positives and point out he has become one of the best offense big men in the game…….. david does not play defense… okay. he is undersized practically every night…..
i guess I value defensive effort more than you.. thats OK.. dont take it personal.
i dont support paying near max money (25% of the cap for Lee’s years) to an admittedly flawed player.
we can disagree without you resorting to words like “annoying”
you really sound upset over this.
oh sorry biggie. i was not referring to you. i respect you and half the time i just scroll down to see what you and mucha post and then thats it. did not mean antyhing by saying annoying haha. sorry if that offended you. i did not intend to by any stretch of imagination. i was saying that writing _avi_ lee is annoying…… once again, sorry.
I agree with your post but “david does not play defense… okay. he is undersized practically every night…” is not bla bla IMO (no disrespect my friend). Ben Wallace is 6’9.
*is bla bla
since when does undersized mean SHORT. ben wallace is JACKED and lee is skinny and not very muscular. they clearly have different genes… not david lees fault.
I think Lee has a pretty strong body (lower body strength in particular). Not muscular but he’s not Channing Frye skinny either…
I believe that the Knicks will always pay defensively if David Lee plays center (like you do). I can accept that. What I don’t accept is his lack of EFFORT. Whether he’s 6’9, 6’11, 5’9… he could TRY to play some help defense every now and then.
agreed. sometimes it seems like david isnt trying on every possession defensively. in his defense, he is logging way too minutes. i mean try and play 48 minutes one day and then the next day go out and have the energy needed to play hard on every possession. mike really needs to expand the rotation, or hell destroy lee like he did chris last year.
I agree, that’s why we were complaining about Hill’s lack of playing time.
If Hill quickly becomes a solid contributor, Lee will show his “true colors”.
Did you watch the 2nd game in Detroit? Lee watched Hamilton make a wide open lay-up DOWN THE STRETCH… He was waiting there for a rebound or something, looking like a kid in a candy store. He didn’t play D that night, but that play was the icing on the cake.
He’s a warrior though. The fact that he played 48 minutes in Philly was incredible. But his D is a joke, I mean I don’t even want him to be a GOOD defender… but please TRY to play some help defense.
wow, i just re-read that and that was a mistake. i meant to say david does not play great defense.
ok .. I agree.
i give him some credit.. Ive said he has improved his jump shot but leaps and bounds.. where as last year he had NO shot.. and he has gained confidence in his offense and has some decent moves around the rim..
But Im saying.. the debate is whether Lee is our near max player.. earning 10-12 mil a year.. and rising from there..
Im just not ready to sign onto that deal unless he cranks it up on the defensive end.. And the rub is it really isnt that hard to give effort ont eh other end of the court.. His coach just doesnt seem to hold him accountable or doesnt school him AND THE OTHER PLAYERS enough in that aspect of the game.
Im not sure he is the #2 on a championship team.. He’s a nice player. I get the appeal of the home grown.. well spoken guy.. but nice guys finish last. and we’ve finsihed last enough.
“But Im saying.. the debate is whether Lee is our near max player.. earning 10-12 mil a year.. and rising from there.. ”
Good question, but where do you put him next year? At Center? Not even close, for the same reasons listed by ds2488 below. At PF for 10/year, sign me up.
that goes to the frustrating thing about this coach.. Im not sure D’Antoni sees Lee as a 4 “in his system”.
In a vacuum Lee will require a seriously defensive focused pivot caddy.. A Marcus Camby type.
And 40 minutes is unacceptable.
I would say 7 or 8 mil a year is where i would be comfortable signing him.Maybe being a sixth man on a championship team.. getting 32 a night.
that isnt so horrible.there i said it.
he did play lee and hill the other night….. could that be a sign of things to come? how is lee not worthy of starting on a championship caliber team…. are you kidding? really. david lee is a great player….. we will miss him greatly next year if we lose him
david is worth 10 million in my opinion. before the season started i would have said 8.5 or 9 max, but his jumpshot is money and really has added yet another element to his game offensively. another positive for david is he plays huge minutes day in and day out and never i mean NEVER gets hurt or wins about wear and tear. you want bosh to be your 1a guy, and although he is better than david (not by much) theres a chance his knees will “fall off” while lee is as durable as they come. durability is HUGE….. ive seen the lack of it destroy my metsies. david lee is worth 10 million….. 12 is pushing it. i would much rather keep david here than sign amare or chris bosh. durability folks…… yet another positive for david.
dont want to talk about his defense? OK .. thats fine..
12 is “pushing it”? I think its complete insanity.
Lee is six foot 9 .. he is not “under sized”/. he use to be knows as a leaper.
he just doesnt play ANY defense.
he is skinny…. not muscular. undersized does not mean “short” only. really 12 is insanity because bosh will get atleast 14 million and is bosh THAT much better than david. i mean david does got out there day in and day out, while bosh is an injury wating to happen. what has chris bosh won for his raptors, who are way more talented than us.
he is listed as 249 pounds. and has been in teh league for now five years.. he is 26 going on 27 years old.
when i hear skinny i think of Anthony Randolph (who BTW plays defense.. )
no one is talking about Bosh… stop deflecting.
lee is skinny, meaning not muscular. anthony randolph who plays defense, and who is currently injured, unlike david who is as durable as they come. give the guy some credit.
you mentioned Lee being “skinny and non u muscular” as reasons for his lack of defense.
I presented a player who is skinnier and less muscular but plays great defense… Not talking about injuries. Im not paying him to be durable. thats just silly.
Ive givenhim credit. you must not be reading the whole thread. (understandable) .. but its wierd cause your first comment was on the sub thread where I and HaS gave props to his offensive talents.
im not making excuses for davids lack of defense although it seems like it and yes, anthony randolph is skinny and does play defense but come on randolph is a genetic/athletic freak, but thats beside the point. i did see your comment on his offensive, i read all of them lol, but from what i have read it just seems like there is so much more bashing of lee for his lack of defense than giving him credit for far and beyond exceeding anyones expectations of what he has become as a player. i mean, for the guy to be even considered an all star is phenomenal…. i dont recall anyone saying he was a future all star when drafted. lee has made huge strides which is clearly a sign of his great work ethic.
here’s an idea.. you can be the one to comment on how great you think he is and how great hsi offensive contributions are and how it overshadows his defensive weaknesses.
rather than complaining that no one is supporting him..
i just value defense at the center position. If thisc coach is still here (and he will be until 2011) then Lee will be the center.
which is a shame because as you say.. he is out of position and over matched on the defensive end.
Chuck Hayes in Houston is even smaller than Lee incidentally.. and he is getting a reputation as a great defensive center.. at 6 foot 6.
i never said he was short……. i dont know why you keep saying that. you can be short and be a good defender.
right.. you said under sized.
Lee is what he is at this point. I agree with Tommy that a huge decision is coming up for DW as to what to do with Lee. In my opinion, while I love what he brings on offense, this guy simply is not a 10+ million per year player. He needs to play both ends of the floor. The problem is that Dantoni uses him as a center, which allows him to exploit slower centers on offense and is a major part of his increased statistics. This also works against him of course, because he is asked to be the last line of defense and to box out other centers like Ben Wallace and Sam Dalembert, which can also work against him. I don’t know anymore with him what exactly he is worth, but as to this article I can say I have a ton of respect for any guy who has his grandfather die and can still play his butt off(on one end of the floor at least) the next night. At least this guy isn’t Marbury…he would be out for 2 months right now.
+1 and great read!
All this bashing about D Lee’s defense is so ridicuous. The guy is clearly playing out of his position at center. It is not his fault that the Knick guards (at least the ones that play) can’t stay in front of their man, Yes it is true that Lee cannot be considered good defensively, but so what? 90% of the guys playing in the NBA play lousy defense. Look at the other guys on the Knicks. How about the “D” that Big Al brings every night? How about that defensive stalwart Eddie Curry? How about the fancy Jonathan Bender?
There are only 2 guys on the team that are “decent” defensively-Jeffries and Douglas, and even they aren’t exactly great. D. Lee is the best all around player on the team, so to those who whine about his defense-get over it. As far as his value, if a bum like Larry Hughes is getting paid 14 mil., David Lee would be justified if he winds up with 12 next year. The Knicks will be fortunate if D. Lee is on the team next season. And please, stop with the nonsense already about Jordan Hill becoming “the next Amare”.
so because Larry Hughes is overpaid by a factor of 2 that means we should use that as a scale for everyone.
No one is “bashing”.. Lee’s D is ridiculous. He is a center in this coach’s system.
No-Larry Hughes’ contract is an example as to the fact that the majority of the guys in the league are grossly overpaid. David Lee is clearly worth 12 million in today’s NBA, given what he provides you
mostly every night-16-20 points, 10-12 rebounds, and 3+ assists.
David Lee is clearly not a natural center-he’s playing center because with this team there is nobody else capable of doing it.
To say no one is”bashing” his defense is ridiculous-you have people harping about his defense being “nonexistent”. Please already!-his defense is not so bad that he should be singled out above everybody else. Go ahead and let him walk next season. We’ll see how things turn out with Jordan Hill and Bender taking his place.
agreed. its sad that many of us do not appreciate our players until they are gone. i love jordan hill though and i think hell be real good sometime. but i want david here a long with him.
Yea, i mean i admit that he’s not a good defender, but i don’t really see the utter terribleness that i’m always reading about.
I recall him playing Duncan very well on both ends a few weeks ago.
I recall him outplaying bosh last week.
There are times where he is not as active as he could be and fails to contest a shot or put his hands up when he could have, and that is a weakness, but he is not some terrible defensive liability.
Other players on our team (duhon, and any combonation of harrington, nate, chandler, or gallo) chose not to show up every night, and Lee gets blamed.
Larry Hughes averaged 22 points, 6.3 rebounds, 4.7 assists per game with the Washington Wizards and he was a really good defender before signing a 5 year $60+10 million contract with the Cavaliers.
Overpaid? Yes.
But D. Lee at $12-13 mill could be too.
Donnie Walsh didn’t HAVE to put $7+1 million under the Christmas tree. A favor for a favor – if David Lee commands more than $10 million then I’ll be PISSED.
why should david settle for 10, when bosh might get a max deal. is bosh really 6.5 million dollars better than david lee? no way. lee will get at least 12…. from new jersey sadly.
so the crux of your argument is because there are so many other over paid players int eh NBA Lee should be one too?
I don’t necessarily buy that Lee can’t play the four in this system. He seems to work fine next to a player like hill, so i think that means he could work fine next to a player like bosh also. You don’t have to necessarily designate one as the center and one as the PF: These days its really just Bigs and stretch bigs.
I think he plays center next to the likes of Galo and JJ every night, because that’s just the way our roster is constructed. If we keep him for beyond 2010, that will change. I could see him pairing with bosh. They would make a great front-court together, IMO.
Lee is one of the best big men passers in the league, whether or not you want to admit it. 4.6 assists per game in the last 30 days. Having a true post player like bosh (or a super-improved Hill) would add a whole new dynamic to the offense.
i think Gallo is more the prototypical 4 “in the D’Antoni system”
Maybe-so but i think the point is that it’s not so discrete. Galo can play next to two big men who are bigger than him and better post defenders…, so long as they are the right type of players. D’Antoni has proven he can adjust to the players he has. You figure out matchups on defense based on what works best, but there’s no reason that Galo can’t play next to Hill and Lee or Lee and Bosh. You could even have a lineup of (PG), Lebron, Galo, Lee, Hill.
and we get back to our “agree to disagree” statement.
Lebron aint coming here to be a 6-9 260 pound point guard.
yeah but i stated i was referring to strength and not necessarily height.
Mucha said somewhere up higher that Lee is relatively strong in the “base”.. meaning the hips and legs.. which is how he gets such high rebound numbers..
He just doesnt exert himself on defense.
he could be stronger across the chest but the dude has been in teh league 5 years.. what is he waiting for/
i agree. he needs to hit the weights….. however, im positive he does and im sure genetics plays a huge factor.
im not sure what to make of this “genetics” comment so ill just let it pass.
Genetics?
I don’t buy this argument.
Counterexamples : Bill Laimbeer and Kurt Rambis.
I don’t want him to become Laimbeer anyways – but the notion that “genetics plays a huge factor” doesn’t make sense IMO.
Let’s trade for Luke Ridnour!
All these boards are these days are three people discussing how bad a coach D’Antoni is and how bad defensively Lee is.
I think the Knicks are playing pretty well this season all things considered. I don’t think they will get to the playoffs, falling a couple of games short, but they seem to be getting a bit more respect around the league which could be key come FA time. 36/37 wins would be great. Especially after we make trades before teh deadline to shed contracts or bring in a pick. I think we have to trade Jefferies if the chance comes, no matter how D’Anotni feels about it, he knew the drill when he came here.
And lets hope Lee makes the All Star team as that we need things like that to turn us around from being the laughing stock of the NBA for the last decade.
Hey gentlemen. I’m a fan and loyal outside onlooker of this site. Just felt the desire to add my opinion to the conversation. D-Lee is a Center in this system, so he should be judged as a center in this system. No one who has ever started or subbed in D’An’s system was ever a threat to be named defensive player of the year. It’s not what he requires for his system. He likes his centers/big men to play pick and roll and stretch the defense with jump shots. That’s the requirement. Anything else is extra. There really is no “center” in his system. There are big men who play and guard whomever on an as needed basis. Center is what D’An writes on the score sheet because each position requires a name. Lee draws the other center on defense because there is no one else on the court for the Knicks that can guard a center most of the time. The fact that he will never be a good defensive center doesn’t change the fact that he is a good center “for what this system requires”.
If Lee gets traded, he will play PF. If Hill blossoms, he will play PF. For now he is this system’s best center. If he had Camby playing center here and providing help defense, those same numbers would make Lee an easy all-star caliber PF (yes the competition is greater at PF, but he wouldn’t have the same defensive criteria to overcome). When you put a smaller man in a big man’s position, you have to give up something . Hayes, and Rodman back in the day, played great D but scored no points. Hayes could not play center in this system, and Lee could not play center in Houston.
Having said all that, Lee is worth 11 mil in some systems/teams, and 7 mil in others based on what position he plays and who plays with him. If Nash were running the point here, we wouldn’t mention defense as long as he got us 18/11 a night. The NBA tonight guys judge Lee based on the system’s requirements, and I think we should too. Just a thought.
Great comments. We tend to lose sight of the team system. So many players who look strong, change teams, and look weak because of a change in system. Look at Turkaglu who looks lost in Toronto after looking great in Orlando. It is the system. Look at Ben Wallace who looked great in Detroit and not so great in Cleveland. It is a team sport and all the players need to compliment one another to really look good. When you are winning 50 plus games a season, someone is playing enough defense to get you there. This year the Knicks are improving their defense and improving their all around game (at least enough to make the playoffs in a weak division) More than can be said of the wowful Nets.