The Darko Debate

I have to think that D’antoni is the one that’s wrong in this situation. Darko has had an uninspring career but he could at least have helped in 10-15 minutes a night. The coach hates C that clog the lane in his offense.

The only time D’antoni used an actual C was with Shaq & that was because of Kerr’s power play.

That’s why I question when people suggest Camby or Haywood to the Knicks, there is no guarantee that the coach would even want to play them

Things Darko has allegedly indicated this year:

Place me on the inactive list
The NBA is not the place for me
I am going to play in Europe next year
I like the offense to go through me

The Knicks are looking to change their losing culture. Who wants a mope like that on their team? What would it say for the organization to allow a malcontent clearly just playing out there contract, who is not committed, who doesn’t practice hard, who didn’t appreciate the fresh start and the opportunity…to get minutes?

The same could be said for Eddy Curry. He rarely seemed to have “fire and desire” in games and when he did it was only for getting his shot. No D, no bounds, no blocks.

Reading my crystal ball I do not see a Knickworld future where the choice is good attitude/modest talent vs major character issues/talent. I don’t have a problem with that.

I personally think D’antoni is a smug, jerk, who would never deviate from his beloved system… But that’s beside the point… I think his treatment of Duhon, Nate, Hughes, Curry, Douglas, Hill, and Darko would dispel the belief that he is a players’ coach… His interest in Roberson last year, after a few practices in the Summer League, would say he isnt the best talent evaluator… D’antoni only seems to value offense, so when a player doesnt impress him offensively he most likely wont fit in the system… Darko may have not lived up to potential but we knew that years ago… Anyone who expected he’d to come to NY and play like he was worthy of a second pick in any draft, is foolish… But, why couldnt he have helped the Knicks in the same way that the Birdman helps the Nuggets? Why couldnt he have been a legit big playing beside Lee? But we all said the same thing last year with Wilcox and D’antoni never really gave him a shot either… D’antoni’s rigid way of thinking will be his downfall… And many of us keep making excuses for his mistakes… We cant continue to draft, trade, and sign players based on what D’antoni needs in his system… Not one decision has been a true success yet, and I’m convinced he doesnt even know who fits his system…

I think anyone who comes in this summer will get play right away. In a sense, it’ll be DW’s power play. It’s his way of saying “these are your horses, now win”. Wasn’t that D’antoni’s own mantra? He’ll have live by it, even he knows how short his leash’s gonna be next year.
I really hope a guy like Haywood would end up here, we need a big guy who can block and really contest shots, rebounds and doesn’t get bitched out in the lane.

Yup, his character and attitude issues are key in how he coaches. Stubborn, uncommunicative, and quick to judge. Outstanding.
Quick looks isn’t the best way to analyze a player. Wasn’t Darko also “fit to play in this system because of his Euro style way of playing”? This is ridiculous, almost 85% of players in this league are fit, if not more.
I can accept the fact that Darko didn’t have the best attitude, eastern european people are known for their distant and cold personalities. Besides, after so many dissapointing seasons for him, a bitter player wouldn’t surprise me at all.
It sucks if your players aren’t pumped and motivated, but part of coaching is to motivate and pyschically prepare your squad for a season, game, playoff series, etc.
If you’re a coach and you got a 7 footer who can block, rebound, and clog the lane, it should be good enough reason to keep him around and help him get his feet wet me thinks.

My feeling from the beginning was that getting Milicic was a useless move.

I couldn’t find many lineups with him on the court that made me think the team would be better. The way I saw it, if you used him at C and moved Lee to PF, you had to play Chandler/Harringon less at PF. That did not seem like a net improvement. (I expected Chandler to play more PF and not nearly as much SG).

The way it turned out Chandler became the SG. So Milicic would have substituted for Jeffries and Lee would have switched to PF. I think that would have been an interesting thing to experiment with. He’s not a terrific player, but if you look at his Per 36 minute numbers he’s way more effective than the raw Per Game stats and would have rebounded reasonably well and blocked shots.

I didn’t see those practices, but this is one of D’Antoni’s coaching quirks that I think hurts the team. With him it’s often all or nothing. I think a more flexible coach would have found situations where having Milcic on the court would have helped a lot when Lee was totally overmatched defensively. Playing in turn would have encouraged Milicic to work harder. But once he knew he was out, his threw in the towel.

In my opinion Milicic is responsible for his failure in NY. The team took a chance that a change of scenery might inspire Milicic to play at an NBA level. Apparently the experiment did not work. Maybe he will come to life in Minnesota. Any coach, including D’Antoni, is going to do his best to win games. Winning games means having talented, motivated players on the floor. There is little time for a coach to try to convince malcontents that they should work hard, play hard and put the team first. When a player comes without these qualities, you really cannot blame the coach. .

+1 nice post. I agree with you 100%

Everyone who keeps defending this coach needs to stop. Please just stop!!!! That includes you Tommy Dee.

I usually don’t post from my job but this is a touchy subject for me.

Tell me Marbury didn’t come with the right attitude last year??? He played his heart out during pre-season (and out of position) and was busting it during practice. ain’t it right Mr. Dee??

I remember that Miami game earlier during the year in which Darko got the ball in two consecutive possessions and scored. I remember thinking that we can use that along with his passing.

Also he might had struggled with athletic bigs but every single guard that went in the paint saw darko’s jersey number in their face. Isn’t that what we need???

Please just stop making excuses for this coach!!!!

+1

We would hope that players would be self-motivated pros
but they are not, part of the reason we have these things called
COACHES, with C O A C H I N G S T A F F ‘S.

The Coach might manage the team and plan the plays
but the COACH and his STAFF are supposed to COACH the players
to get the most out of them. Be it tough love or a pot of honey
they are supposed to try and maximize the talent given to them.

We know D Antoni and staff have simply NOT done that.
DAnt would have probably benched Shaq if he wasn’t Shaq.

If the coach and coaches had to scream at Darko to hustle they should have done it loudly, they could have used google translate to learn how to say it in Darkos’ native language too..Dantoni whining that something
didn’t feel right is reegoddamdiculous.

They call it COACHING!

The way I see it:
Thinking the guy could get 10 pts per would be ridiculous, but to think that could get 3 to 4 blocks and 12 boards per isn’t a pipedream, it’s a reality if used correctly.
True, it wasn’t easy to guess that Will wold end up at the 2, but my argument is simple, there are nights that you need a guy that can actually try to be a nuisance (just for the size of the guy) to players like Duncan, Lopez, Varejao, Shaq, Howard, etc, is someone you need on your team. If, as a coach, you don’t know how to get him pumped, just give him consistent 15-20 min per and the guy slowly’ll get his feet wet and confidence back, yet D’antoni didn’t have “the luxury of time” to play Darko because “he really wanted to win”. A bit of patience could’ve paid off on this one me thinks.

Who cares about Darko?

Have any of you who think he could have given us significant minutes ever watched him play? I know he was measured as having good quickness and hops back when he was drafted, but I’ve never seen it on the court, where he looks to have all the speed and grace of a brontosaurus and half the basketball IQ.

Couple that with his horrendous attitude and body language and you have a worthless player IMO, good riddance. I feel kind of sorry for him because maybe without the burden of expectations that came with being drafted 2nd and considered a flop he might have become a serviceable role player. But now he stinks.

Yup, totally agree. Even if D’antoni applied his stupidity and old grudge against Marbury, DW should’ve kept him as an asset to make a T-Mac sort of trade.
He had a big expiring contract and could’ve helped get us picks and young talent.
Yet our offensive coordinator’s attitude screwed that up.
I was on board with this coach 2 season’s ago. When I started seeing how this team was turning out I devided to give him time, but after the first trade deadline I could see where things were going.
DW satisfied D’antoni’s requests, and the latter didn’t know how to used them to his favor.
That ain’t the coach I want moving forward.

Save your breath, J_Starks3.

Tommy Dee will continue backing this hack of a coach regardless.

It’s really mind-boggling.

Darko was yet another move that Walsh made to improve the roster only to have MD crap all over his confidence and just plain refuse to play him no matter how badly we needed a warm body in the middle. It’s a pattern that I can’t imagine Walsh is enamored with.

My only hope is that when Walsh retires, which will be sooner than later, our new GM will rid our beloved franchise of this fiasco of a head coach.

you should a +1 from pretty much 95& of the posters

+1

The job of a coach is to maximize the talents of his players. Why is it that this coach never seems to do this? Look at what Jordan Hill is doing now.
It is ridiculous to constantly be making excuses for D’Antoni by simply saying that players should motivate themselves. Yes, in the ideal world, maybe that is how it should work, but with these prima donnas communication by a coach is essential. This coach simply doesn’t do it.

I just think 15-20 per to help grab some boards and try to get some blocks at tough patches during games could’ve helped, but to think the guy could’ve scored a lot would be day dreamin’

AMEN, harris!

OK now let me see here…….I have a question for y’all….

What is one thing that makes a great coach?

Taking players nobody wants or even troubled players or young players and getting them to play well. Teaching these young man and they are young about the real world and the right way to play basketball.

Isiah was able to get Eddy Curry to almost allstar status. He actually had a squad playing pretty well until injuries really derailed him. No they were not going to be anywhere what Isiah thought but he was getting more from certain players than anybody did before.

Lets look at what D’Assholi has done.

Has he taken any player, any player, please name one and brought him to a higher level with the Knicks? No….he may have done it with his last team thanks mostly to having Nash blossom, but everybody that has come through the Knicks has been turned into a pile of crap. He has not taken one players and added his personal touch as a coach to get that player motivated and playing up to their potential or beyond.

So this is the great players coach? He is nothing more than a Prima Donna phony and now it’s showing.

Did he take Darko under his wing and work with him. The guy is only 24, did he try to teach him about how things work in the NBA and how to reach his potential. I really doubt it, if anything he did more harm and made him start saying things like I am going back home. He never said that until he played for the Knicks. Darko already had the business done to him by Larry Brown who is not the great coach everybody thinks he is, he’s just a survivor. Brown is an X and O guy not a people person, that’s why he wears out the welcome quickly.

So Darko is drafted and treated like crap from the first day he’s in the NBA, did D’Assholi do anything to help this kid…NO…he gave him the same business and Darko had enough. I’m not saying Darko was right just that as with every player it could have been handled differently.

That’s the issue, things seem to always be handled wrong with D’assholi. Walsh gets this coach players and the coach finds them totally unfit for the NBA and the team. This is a team with 20 wins and nobody is good enough to play for us….LMAO. All I keep hearing is how things could have been done differently by Walsh and D’ass, whenever things go wrong all I hear is excuses from these 2 frauds.

Does any team in the NBA have this much drama? It’s like a soap opera at MSG.

All the Knick fans want to see is a competitive team that plays hard and has a chance to win. Is it that hard to do? If it’s that hard to do and it seems that way in the NBA these days then we have to get better people running the show because so far they have been total failures.

This you’ll see, wait until July stuff is crap. Both guys have shown nothing, they have made mistake after mistake in judgment and that’s all going to magically change because we have 32 million dollars in caps space.

Name one trade or move by either that actually improved the team other than gutting it. There are none and now we are magically going to become this great competitive team with Walsh behind the scenes and D’ass running the show……..Pleeeeeeze.

Bravo, BigDaddybluesman!

…and we won’t even get into MD’s beady little eyes and porn star/narc mustache.

IT ALL COMES DOWN TO D’ANTONI BEING A STUBBORN BASTARD….lol

he wanted Darko to be able to hit an 18-20 footer, which isn’t his game at alllllll, D’antoni should have jus let the man be what he is, a defensive presence in the post and on the weak side….and let him get 3-5 touches inside, and let the rest of his points come from garbage points as in offensive rebounds and putbacks…..did not have to run the offense thru him like he tries w/ lee…….

AND I’M I THE ONLY PERSON THAT THINKS THE KNICKS NEED TO BENCH MCGRADY??? LET HIM COME IN W/ THE SECOND UNIT AND RUN SUM PNT, AND START BILL WALKER IN HIS PLACE, AND START THE LINEUP HE HAD AGAINST ATLANTA FOR THE REST OF THE SEASON…
S-ROD
BILL WALKER
GALLO
CHANDLER
LEE

BENCH:
DOUGLAS
MCGRADY
HARRINGTON

CURRY
GIDDENS

“I like the offense to go through me”

When did that happen?

“Place me on the inactive list
The NBA is not the place for me
I am going to play in Europe next year”

All after about 20+ into the season with DNP’s as if he werea rookie back on a championship Detroit squad.

We know it isn’t _’antoni’s policy to talk to his players directly (according to his book) maybe a simple, “hey we’re facing a big team in a couple days I’d like to give you an extended look but I need to see it in practice.”, but I guess _’antoni’s method has worked so well up until now; why change?

“Throughout the year at practices I attended Milicic never busted it. He settled on jumpshots and loafed up and down the court. He never MADE the coach look to him and say, ‘play me I can help.’ That comes through effort.”

And who, pray tell, does “bust it” in practice? Chandler? Gallo? Duhon?
Who, Tommy, who???

Nate was the only player on the roster with a pulse and we traded him away because D’Antoni doesn’t know how to harness talent and manage personalities.

D’Antoni’s fault all the way, he holds grudges, he doesnt give guys chances, some people’s demeanor just does not dispaly rah rah but you must give them a chance and he doesnt give it. His great garbage 7SOL is garbage, yeah it was ok when Nash was running it and yea he MAYBE was a hip check away from the Finals with it BUT we’ll never know. What we do know so far it’s not working in MSG or on the road.

One thing I noticed LEAGUE wide when I cant hear Clyde and Breen and co, the other teams announcers kill us and repeately throughout their broadcast mention that the Knicks do not play defense and if a team is patient they will get their shots because the Knicks dont play DEFENSE and I get upset because they are SO RIGHT! The Knicks double team and the other team gets a wide open shot, when other teams double their squad rotates and covers the open man.

I hate that DAntoni does not address DEFENSE Donnie needs to show that he is the GM and bring in some defensive guys on the staff. Mike left because Kerr mentioned it so maybe he needs to go.

I hate DAntoni’s ruins careers or stymies career with his grudges

Agreed!

I know that Clyde and Breen have to toe the company line during their broadcasts or they’ll get kicked to the curb like Marc, and as much as I enjoy listening to them, it’s the other team’s announcers that keep hammering that same point over and over.

Sean Elliot was hammering MD’s style last night during the SA game.

It’s refreshing to hear TV commentators communicate what we all already know….

kicked to the curb like MARV, not Marc…

I think this was a 2 way street. Darko appeared to have no interest in running and gunning in the coach’s system and either that or he was just plain lost. He was really unimpressive in the looks he got early on. D’antoni was his usual stubborn self and refused to adapt his philosophies/attitude to the needs for a defensive minded center. The fact that Jeffries, Hill and Curry had priority didn’t help the situation.

I wish Darko got some minutes in an attempt to add some paint protection, but he is also a huge offensive liability. I severely doubt that playing Darko would have netted any wins, but still, D’antoni should have adjusted and given him a fair shake.

++++1

“D’Assholi” that was good man!!!!!!LOL

biggie, has, someone please post those stats of darko so this guy can rethink if Darko would’ve helped this team or not.

Look by how much we have been out-rebounded by!!!!

The points in the paint!!!!!!!!!

Oh Lord have mercy!!!!!

Amazing how this blog has turned into a total revision of recent history. To blame D’Antoni and his coaching staff for the fate of three malcontents (ie: Milicic, Marbury and Curry) is unbelievable. Milicic, Marbury and Curry have been underachiever’s their entire careers. I am sure each of them is blaming D’Antoni for their lack of success. Everyone really is entitled to an opinion. Especially on this blog.

“Darko was yet another move that Walsh made to improve the roster only to have MD crap all over his confidence and just plain refuse to play him no matter how badly we needed a warm body in the middle.”

Haha because the label of “biggest draft bust in recent memory” had Darko’s confidence soaring.

What is really mind boggling is how you guys consistently insert you personal feelings and opinions into D’antoni’s actions and state them as FACT.

It appears NONE OF YOU have any first hand insight, sat at a practice, talked to other beat writers, interviewed ANY players/coaches/management…so by the process of osmosis… YOUR OPINION should be valued more….right? You JUST KNOW better!!!

You KNOW why D’antoni benched Darko. You JUST KNOW D’antoni was intentionally trying to devalue his players, crap on their confidence and essentially sabotage his team. I mean that’s why he was brought here and has been his M.O. for his career, right?

The absolute certitude of so many of these assertions regarding D’antoni’s intent is nothing more than your frustrated and distant view from the cheap seats.

I don’t take Tommy’s opinion as law but his access to the players and people within this organization and the fact that he spends his days living and breathing this stuff suggests he knows more than the 30 minutes a day you armchair GMs put into this endeavor.

That said, Darko is a career underachiever but of course…to Knick fans…it’s all D’antoni’s fault…makes perfect sense.

“He was really unimpressive in the looks he got early on.”

All 70 mins in 8 games? Not true.

“I wish Darko got some minutes in an attempt to add some paint protection, but he is also a huge offensive liability.”

Jeffries was an offensive dynamo wasn’t he?

Darko seemed like a very good passer and him and Lee had a couple interior passes during the season that seemed like something that could have been built on. I think he could have added to the offense in that aspect as well as offensive rebounding even if he didn’t contribut anything else.

This “coach” as someone said is all or nothing. Period.

Duho goes from 40+ mins some nights to DNP’s the rest of the season? Give me a break.

DUHON?Whenwas he treated bad?he got to run the KNICKS for almost 2 full seasons of over 35 mins per.I wish i were treated that bad.

Fact:

Darko didn’t play when he was here.

Darko is playing in Minnesota and averaging nearly a block and a half in about 20 mins a game.

Fact:

_avi_ Lee starts at Center.

Lee has 0 presence in the lane on defense.

Fact:

The team could have used a defensive presence.

I am not blamind the coach for “the fate” of these three players. I blame him for misusing them and misleading us to believe that they were going to be a part of this teams turn around. With the exception of curry it was Mike who said publicly that he could use a big to grab boards, somewhat protect the rim and one that can pass out of the occational double team. He said this.

“underachievers” a great coach would grab these underachievers and bring some production out of them and doesn’t give up on them so quickly.

How is Kurt Rambis finding time for Darko in Minny with all the bigs that they have there??? Please explain to me how is that possible??

“I can agree with the coach.”

-Tommy Dee

Have you ever disagreed with him?

Thank you.

I was feeling alone in this battle.

“biggie, has, someone please post those stats of darko so this guy can rethink if Darko would’ve helped this team or not.”

Holy cow. Did you even ready what I wrote? I never said he wouldn’t have helped, I said he wouldn’t have netted any wins. Huge difference. It’s Darko Milicic not Moses Malone, he’s not going to be a difference maker, especially if you have to put Jeffries, Hill and Curry ahead of him.

“Look by how much we have been out-rebounded by!!!!”

Take Lee out, put in Darko, Is there a net change in rebounding?? Yeah probably a loss.

“The points in the paint!!!!!!!!!”

Yeah take out Lee and put in Darko and the Knicks don’t get any points in the paint and chuck 3′s more than they already do.

There’s an opportunity cost for playing Darko. It’s not like you can just add Darko and play 6 men, you gotta take Lee out. Yeah you may get a few stops but you also trade out best offensive player for one of the worst. When Lee sits, I’d rather Jeffries, Hill and Curry take most of those minutes. Don’t sit there and act like playing Darko would have taken us to the playoffs.

What are you talking about? Curry? Are you serious? His intentions of playing him never were more than 10 min per.
The Marbury case was a because of a simple grudge, and anyone who saw the preseason could the guy came into play and suddenly he dissapeared.
Milicic might’ve been a disgruntled player, but his mere size gave him a rebounding and boarding asset, specially to a team that’s had bad boarding stats in the past 2 seasons.
If you see the numbers he’s putting up in Minny with the constant, check that word, constant minutes he’s getting, you can tell he didn’t get the opportunity ne needed to gain confidence and pace here.

I never said take Lee out.

what about JJ???

“Yeah take out Lee and put in Darko and the Knicks don’t get any points in the paint and chuck 3’s more than they already do.”

I think he meant points in the paint by the other team. Remember them?

“It’s not like you can just add Darko and play 6 men, you gotta take Lee out.”

I thought Lee was playing out off position at Center? Now it’s impossible for him to play next to a traditional Center?

Hmmm ok.

“When Lee sits, I’d rather Jeffries, Hill and Curry take most of those minutes.”

Problem is, only Jeffries was getting those minutes and he wasn’t exactly burning the offense end up.

It seems that nowadays you need to to talk to the players first hand to understand what’s going on in the court.
Analyzing how a team and players play somehow isn’t connected on how they’re treated while they belong to a certain franchise? So a player’s development and improvement isn’t connected to how many constant minutes he gets?
Hmmm…. Suspicious.
You’ve seen how much involvment Gallo’s gotten standing still in the wing waiting to get more than 4 touches per quarter, and that’s his own fault?
You’ve seen the overall regression on D, and somehow that’s also the player’s faults?
Wow

Wasn’t showcasing JJ a priority? I’d rather try to trade JJ then play Darko for a few extra rebounds. Darko is not that much better than JJ defensively if at all.

Sure, the kid didn’t come in with the greates expectations or high on confidence. But a bit of confidence from your coach and constant minutes to let you get back on your feet certainly helps, imo.
If Jeffries played because of his intangibles, couldn’t have Darko played to get tons of boards and a couple of blocks here and there?

can anyone say…… TOM THIBODEAU, KNICKS NEED TO HIRE TOM THIBODEAU AS AN ASSISTANT HEAD-COACH, LIKE THEY DO IN THE NFL…HE WAS JVG’S DEFENSIVE GURU AND NOW IS DOC’S IN BOSTON..WE NEED TO MAKE HIM THE HIGHEST PAID ASSISTANT COACH OUT THERE, SO HE’D BE WILLING TO LEAVE BOSTON AND COME BACK TO NY…THIS IS OUR BEST OPTION RIGHT NOW, AND IT WILL DEF HUMBLE D’ANTONI, CAUSE THAT MEANS HE HAS ONE FOOT OUT THE DOOR IF WE’RE NOT COMPETITIVE NEXT YR….AND THEN WE CAN HAND THE REIGNS TO TOM IMMEDIATELY AND NOT A BUM ASS COACH LIKE HERB WILLIAMS….HERB AND ATKINSON NEED TO BE FIRED IMMEDIATELY….DAN AND PHIL WEBER CAN STAY…BUT THE OTHER 2 MUST GO, AND HOW ABOUT HIRE A BIG MAN COACH WHO ACTUALLY WAS A GOOD BIG MAN IN THE NBA….LIKE MCHALE/HAKEEM/RALPH SAMPSON/EWING/LARRY JOHNSON/ETC ETC…LJ WASN’T BIG, BUT HE HAD SUM OF THE BEST POST MOVES IN THE LEAGUE AFTER HE LOST HIS HOPS FROM HIS BACK ISSUES….

“I think he meant points in the paint by the other team. Remember them?”

Um I realize that and I flipped it. My point was you add defense but not all things remain the same, you give up the most important part of the Knicks offense.

“I thought Lee was playing out off position at Center? Now it’s impossible for him to play next to a traditional Center?”

Was this a talking point I made? Or a talking point you made up to pidgeon hole an argument? Lee is a center in a PF’s body. That’s about it.

“Problem is, only Jeffries was getting those minutes and he wasn’t exactly burning the offense end up.”

The problem is that Darko was expiring and JJ wasn’t. JJ was being showcased. Not rocket science.

I criticized D’antoni for not adapting his system, what more do you guys want from me? But I’m not going to sit here and actu like Darko was going to save out season. D’antoni is stubborn and Darko sucks, that’s all there really is to it. Do I have to blame D’antoni for the Haiti earthquake too?

The fate of these players was impossible to predict, but getting the best of them was something where D’antoni could’ve had his hand in.
In Marbury’s peculiar case, because it really was strange, my POV is simple: an old grudge, from another time and place, took its toll on this coach and made him act in a way that didn’t give Marbury the chance to show during the regular season, to show what he had to bring to the team. That is not giving a chance to a player, who had something more to bring than Duhon imo.

“The problem is that Darko was expiring and JJ wasn’t. JJ was being showcased. Not rocket science.”

JJ didn’t need 40 mins to be showcased.

JJ shouldn’t be played that many minutes at any time, he can contribute, but I think he is more effective in spurts anything above 25 mins and he can begin to hurt more than he helps.

Darko could have gotten 15-20 mins. considering the desperate need for a defensive presence in the middle.

“Lee is a center in a PF’s body. That’s about it.”

That’s just not true.

What about Lee makes him a Center?

JJ was going to get his minutes anyways!!!

Plus we are talking 15 to 20 minutes for Darko.

Agreed… Especially considering you traded Darko for a stiff that we cut the very next day… And Darko is in Minny getting minutes and looking like a serviceable bigman…

i could care less about Darko, although I would have liked to see him get more of a chance. He’s no good anyway and will be back in Europe next year where he “can have the offense run through him”. My problem was with Hill and Jeffries. Retarded. We played JJ all those minutes to “increase his trade value” and Hill wasn’t ready because we were trying to win right? Well, fat lot of good that did increasing JJ’s trade value. We had to give up so much just to get rid of the bum. And now he barely plays in Houston, while a winning competitive team uses Hill 20 minutes a game now and he’s averaging close to a double double in that time and he actually plays defense, which makes him better than Lee. Damn I hate this franchise. Don’t worry for next year though, we can resign Al Harrington and run the team through him, since that clearly takes priority to developing young players.

I have to add now look at the few games Jordan Hill has played for the Rockets. He’s putting up numbers close to what Gallo is and in almost half the minutes….LOL.

Let’s face it, D’ass is not a good coach and he does not asses talent well, neither does Walsh.

About Darko, he has said some dumb things, as would most early 20 somethings, all people do. But he is not an angel at all. He has a poor work ethic and a poor attitude. Did D’ass do anything to try and change that? Did Darko have it coming into the NBA or did it develop here in the USA because of his first coach being the wonderful great guy Larry Brown? I think he was all of 18 or 19 years old…..and he ran into the king of head case coaches and head games coaches.

But Darko has to share some of the blame as all players do. That goes for Hughes, Nate, Hill, Darko, Marbury, Curry, Duhon(the party animal)…wait how many players has D’ass pushed aside? WOW.

So just how many players for the Knicks did D’ass actually develop into good players? So far it’s Zero…….DLee made himself what he is offensively, he worked very hard in the offseason. Now could you imagine how good he might be if D’ass actually had someone work with him on defense…….

When I said the WHO, it makes who as in give me a name. Please name someone. Please name someone that D’ass has developed on the Knicks into a much better player, a real keeper. The only player who developed is Lee and he probably won’t be here next year.

And when I say to some who, I mean who is going to come here next year and make this team into a winner. With 32 big ones to spend and the need for 9-10 players the math does not work. I tried it over and over again. I looked at all the free agents and possible trades and there is no way that Walsh can assemble a winning team even if he gets LeBron. With NO draft picks, and 2 lottery misfires there is No core.

Notice one thing, Curry has said openly no matter how much he tries in practice and what he does he know D’ass won’t play him. Guess what, he’s not playing him. Notice Darko said the same thing. There is more to it because we are not privy to everything that goes on behind closed doors. Not to mention the total lack of communication D’ass has with his players. Unless your coaches pet(Gallo) you get treated like a leper.

Now someone tell me a center rotation of Darko and Curry would not amount to a better record than we have. How many games were lost because of the lack of an inside presence? Too many. But noooooooooo……coach D’ass, he knows better, he knows that it’s better to play a 6’9″ PF who’s more of a finesse player at center. Yeah he showed the world and NBA that he’s a genius.

So guess what D’ass, you would have to change your precocious 7SOL to fit the players you have. Oh no!!!!!!!! I can’t do that!!!!!!! Well, Isn’t that what a great coach does, makes a system to fit his players until he eventually has the players he wants. That could take years, in the mean time you go with what you have.

First of all let me say That Tommy Dee Loves D’Antoni and we already know who he favors in this incident. The fact is that every player from marbury to curry has had a problem with this idiot. Also we all know that this guy will not play a CENTER!

The coach was saying all year that the team runs better when Duhon is running the point… He stated time and time again that Nate couldnt run the system because he isnt a real pg… He didnt play Douglas because he couldnt run the team correctly… Now Duhon who he heaped praise on for two years, and refused to sit even when injured… Is riding the pine in favor of Sergio, who is a back up at best, Douglas, who he didnt let run the team all year, and House, who cant dribble if his life depended on it… I dont feel sorry for Duhon, I’m just saying D’antoni is extremely inconsistent… That has to annoy players…

“Was this a talking point I made? Or a talking point you made up to pidgeon hole an argument?”

I think you attempted to pidgeon hole the argument by saying if you put Darko in Lee HAS TO come out.

That is just not true.

“Darko is playing in Minnesota and averaging nearly a block and a half in about 20 mins a game.”

Minne has also been 1-9 since acquiring Darko. Again, not a real difference maker.

Let’s pretend we’re Wolves fans for a second. Are we happy that a rental like Milicic is cutting into Kevin Love’s minutes and not getting us any more wins?

Here is another fact

Minny is 1-9 since they traded for Darko

Let’s be real here guys…Darko is NOT a difference maker, he’s a below average player (not even worth his contract imo) with a bad attitude

Why anyone believes he could have made a difference in the win/loss column here is beyond me.

I think the “showcasing Jeffries” story is another line of BS from people afraid to criticize the management and coach for fear of lost access to them.

If we were going to use Milcic, it should have been with Lee in a more traditional lineup. It really only needed to be in games where Lee was getting abused on defense and needed help rebounding, on defense, and protecting the paint from perimeter players.

Yeah that line up was better against ATL . T-Mac would be of better service in the second unit and it would allow Gallo to play more confident. Also decrease House’s mins at the pg.

It’s hard to believe how much D’Antoni hate there is on this board.

I have to admit, I am really rooting for him because I like his on camera personality so much. But I have my complaints about his handling of players and not reigning in the 3 point shooting even though we have mostly bad shooters.

All that said, I think Walsh is worse and is getting way too much of a free pass – especially on this last trade which IMHO was a huge blunder.

Exactly. We talk about not defending all the time… The coach has made mention of it all year… Yet he never wanted to play some of the best defenders on the team Hughes, Douglas, and Darko… You cant tell me they wouldnt have won more games if these guys played more, you certainly cant get me to believe they would have lost more…

someone (I believe Rocky) mentioned the responsibility of the coaching staff.

Berman/Post:

D’Antoni was asked if he would consider making coaching staff changes next season to improve the defense.
D’Antoni’s assistants are his brother, Dan, Herb Williams, Phil Weber and Kenny Atkinson.
“No thoughts whatsoever,” D’Antoni said. “I’m really satisfied. I’m not throwing anyone under the bus. That’s not going to happen.”

I’m really satisfied?!? good then, we should all shut up and enjoy…

“That’s just not true.”

How can an opinion be deem true or untrue? Centers can only be giant lumbering back-to-basket players?

What is it about Bargnani that makes him a center? Duncan? Lopez?

The fact that prior to this season Lee had no jumper made him mostly unsuitable for the 4. 4′s in the NBA are becoming more like wings.

Camby wouldn’t clog up the lane he is not a post player he can hit the 15 footer from the elbow camby would work well in this system he runs the floor well for a big man blocks shots so the defense wouldn’t be so putrid and rebounds very well

So now you believe Lee is playing out of position? Just not when you want to criticize his defense?

It’s” water under the bridge” . Darko is gone . We all know that the coach has his ways . The real fact is that we are stuck with him for now and he wont be judged by DW until next season when DW will give him shot blockers and bigs to work with. Thats when the heat will be on .

I agree with some of the points u made but to be fair dantoni did change his system or better yet slowed it down we haven’t seen the pheonix uptempo system in ny yet mainly bc we don’t have the horses yet

Don’t bring up the Marbury thing no one wanted marbury on the team maybe only da gawd knowledege ( where is he now lol ) everyone wanted marbury Gone and duhon was playing better than him everyone was so happy to have a “true” point remember that? I’m not saying the coach doesn’t have flaws ie not fouling when up by three in the final seconds or not using a foul to give in the final possession but u can’t blame the coach for everything ESP for not playing marbury. Don’t complain guys we knew this was going to be a rebuilding process that was gonna hurt and have many losses but this is how it works it’s almost over. Wait didn’t most if not all of us ok’d the rebuilding plan when walsh came in and everyone said he better stick to the plan and not be like Isiah who changed his plan every 3 months? Again I’m not a dw or md apologist I think mistakes were made ie drafting hill over almost any of the pg or not trading down but they are sticking to the plan

a case could be made that Walsh’s evaluation cant be made before FA summer 2010. That’s the goal he set and that’s what we should hold him to. If he gets LeBron, I’m sure nobody will complain about swapping picks with the Rockets..

D’Antoni can be evaluated for almost two full seasons now. Yes, we all recognize “they are not his horses” but I agree with all the other posts: He has gotten too little out of this bunch period. And, there is just no improvement from the beginning of the season to the end. If that’s not a sign of bad coaching, I don’t know what is.

danni boy
is my favorite coach of all time.

i love when he says we are not going in that direction
i just luv it or how about this 1

they just didn’t make there shots tonite.

lmao…

as for darko i’m pretty sure the guy could of helped defensively but danni boy doesn’t like big guys to play the block..

..and I am NOT a DAntoni hater. I was thrilled when we first got him..

I just live and learn…

Well, DW did say he would do whatever it took to get that cap, and the Jeffires + Hill + picks really demonstrated that. To call it a rebuilding process is just wrong. I’ve always said it was too much to give, it was a risky move and Walsh knows he’s gonna live or die by it.
I think one mistake was thinking the coach would play that big of a role attracting players. I know that the coach has interest, but if a huge player told DW that he wants another coach, he’ll get it.
His other mistake was not getting the most out of the few assets he had. Imo he could’ve gotten 1st and 2nd round picks out of Craw, Z-Bo, Marbury, Lee, and certainly better than that conditional 2nd rounder from Boston for Nate if traded when he was on demand.
For D’antoni, I’ve already said my stance, a guy that can’t have 5 guys of average caliber playing disciplined ball, with more than just two offensive sets and no defensive oranization, using the “these aren’t my players” excuse to justify his behavior, being outcoached 9 out of 10 games, not being able to have a constant rotation, not communicating or motivating his players isn’t a true coach imo.

as for guys saying they are trying to change the losing culture.

why didn’t they trade LEE?
or AL the chuckmaster

The really worrysome thing is that this coach will keep on playing strange favorites (chuckits) , and holding strange grudges.

You mean to tell us that MD wasn’t consulted on getting Darko in the first place? Sure he was.

And that they didn’t promise Darko he’d get a chance to play? Sure they did. And that was Darko’s point: he felt lied to, and I believe him.

There’s just been to many of these ‘situations’ for these guys to have any credibility, and if I was a free agent, or an agent, I’d think long and hard about going to NY, with MD and DW in charge.

It’ll happen again. Maybe even with some guy DW recruits, and ultimately gives a big contract to this summer.

I pretty much agree on Walsh. Still since the reward if we get LBJ would be so great that all else will sink into the background. If we dont, and we have to make pitches at JJ, Camby and who not, then the sh%i will hit the fan.

Something else about the Coach attracting the beloved Olympians. I believe that D’Antoni’s stock has plummeted significantly in the last two years. He was at high leaving the Suns and brought along a huge swagger. That is all but gone.. not sure if the FA’s still feel he is the MAN..

lol. Tommy Dee’s caring water for his boy D’Antoni again!

The coach says this about Darko? “Just the fire and desire wasn’t there. ”

Can you tell me what players exhibit that fire and desire on this team? Was it Duhon or Lee on the defensive end?

Unless this team has listened to a Rick James CD, they have no clue about fire and desire!

This coach sucks and it amazing that some keep carrying water for this dude. What ever happened to performance?

my take is that Duhon was the only real PG in the mix,and when S-ROD got here ,it was”finally,another PG,he cant be as bad as Duhon” and he isnt

“How can an opinion be deem true or untrue? Centers can only be giant lumbering back-to-basket players?”

I never said he was a center, you did. I didn’t say what a Center was or wasn’t, you said Lee is a Center in a PF’s body. Therefore you are attempting to define what a Center is and what a PF is in one statement. I simply asked, what about Lee makes him a Center?

Lee is effectiveness on offense comes from his quickness against Centers, we all know this.

I hear ya! Since this coaching is pure sewage, maybe that’s where he met and fell in luv with RalpheAL!

You really see no growth in our players individually or as a team other than a few players just doing their own thing.

Why would any reasonable person give this coach star players when we’ve had 2 years to see him muck of this team.?

When D’antoni gets fired in 2 years Tommy Dee will sayu “I was always for this coach getting fired,he was never the right guy for the job”

So put him in for JJ? We were trying to trade JJ. You’re adding a good defender, subtracting a good defender who we’re trying to trade, while slowing down the offense.

Yeah, his classic stubborness. He really needs a defensive assistant.

*cayrrying* Although he cares very much too!

I get where you’re trying to go, but a rebuilding is based in draft picks + free agents, like the Bulls, Nets, Clips. The Knicks have 3 players, and only 1 is safe from any possible trade next season (Gallo). That doesn’t strike me as a reconstruction.
You wanna rebuild, fine, then trade your assets and don’t ask for Tim Thomas or Chucketts, look for younger players and picks, I mean, you did address it as a rebuilding process.
What Walsh’s trying to do, simply put, is forming a team through FAgents and the few young guys he managed to keep. He said he was going to rebuild in 2 years, when all he was doing was adjusting his timetable to get rid of fat contracts.
I do remember the “true PG time”, all I was trying to say is that maybe, if handled correctly, Marbury could’ve been traded ala T-Mac for picks, another contract and a young asset.

*carrying* I gotta have a word with my dog! One more mess up and he’s getting a promotion. See, not only can Tommy Dee make excuses for poor performance.

“So now you believe Lee is playing out of position? Just not when you want to criticize his defense?”

So now Lee isn’t playing out of position? Just when you’re defending his lack of defense?

All good points… I’m starting to believe Walsh has been getting players that MD wanted since he came here and that has hindered this team and Walsh…

“So put him in for JJ? We were trying to trade JJ. You’re adding a good defender, subtracting a good defender who we’re trying to trade, while slowing down the offense.”

Playing JJ didn’t help his trade value, he needed to be trade with “the 2nd best big man in the draft” + a swap of picks in 2011 and 2012′s 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder for good measure.

As for Darko “slowing down” the offense, the Knicks stopped running a long time ago and we needed someone to “slow down the offense” of the other team. Darko could have helped in that department.

I agree with you. We can’t judge the Jeffries/Hill/pick trade until we see what happens. I guess I am so CONFIDENT that James and/Wade isn’t coming here that I feel I already know that Walsh blew it. IMO, there’s not much we can do in 2010 that we couldn’t just as easily do in 2011 and still have Hill and the picks to develop or trade.

IMO, Walsh should have seen how Miami, Cleveland, and other teams were maneuvering to keep their star players and adjusted his own thinking on the probability of successfully landing one of them.

If he had, I think he would have concluded that going into 2010 with 20M of cap space would be enough to improve the team. Then he could have waited for the 2010 trade deadline to move either or both of the Jeffries/Curry expiring contracts to add some finishing touches or waited until 2011 to add more free agents when they came off the cap. He could have done all that and retained Hill and the picks.

Now he is the position of holding a lottery ticket on Lebron and Wade that is most likely a loser and he’ll have to use that cap space in 2010 on second tier overpaid all stars or older former all stars to save face. Once it spills over to 2011, all but the most blind will understand that he gave up Hill and picks for NADA!

It’s good to see it when the kool aid wears off. Problem is when the Knicks win a game everybody gets excited and starts thinking about the positives they see for one night. The reality sets in and the losing starts again.

It’s a pattern I have seen for years now with Knick fans. It’s OK because we see things, the good things and then wonder why those things aren’t done the next game. Why the regression?

Why doesn’t this team build on things. They win a game by playing some defense and moving the ball, not chucking up 3s and then next game we are back to no defense, no ball movement and chucking up 3s. That means we lose a few games. Then one game, we play well, pull out a win. A player not know for his defense gets a key stop or a bench player has a career day and we all say wow that’s great how come we don’t do that every game?

Then it’s back to bad basketball and reality sets in.

10 years of that is just too long. I’m sick of it…..I’m sick of the MSG hype and the lies and the phonies and the excuses and the turnstile for players who come here and then are spit out, given away or gone into oblivion.

Exactly, you have no idea what value a product will have after 2 years. D’antoni may be seen as “a players coach” but he’s also proved his worth coaching average players: NONE.

And above all, if DW doesn’t strike oil, it’ll be the dark ages because I don’t see Melo leaving Denver and all this talk I hear about getting Paul out of Curry seems like a huge pipe dream to me. The “rebuilding process” will start again in 2013 after we get picks back so, yeah, umm, our shot will come in the summer.

Good luck to us all

“Let’s pretend we’re Wolves fans for a second. Are we happy that a rental like Milicic is cutting into Kevin Love’s minutes and not getting us any more wins?”

I’m not a Minny fan and we don’t have Kevin Love here.

Everyone here is missing the point!

“I can agree with the coach. Throughout the year at practices I attended Milicic never busted it. He settled on jumpshots and loafed up and down the court. He never MADE the coach look to him and say, “play me I can help.” That comes through effort.”

If you don’t show hustle in practice then you don’t deserve to be in the GAME. Simple and clear on every team in the NBA.

D’Antoni does have his issues with some players I admit that but if I must repeat, you don’t practice hard, you don’t play. Ask a kid playing in a school team or any league about practicing hard gets you to play. Fundamentals

“Why anyone believes he could have made a difference in the win/loss column here is beyond me.”

We’ve seen the difference, or lack thereof, with _avi_ in the middle. Darko would have been worth a real look imo.

I simply asked, what about Lee makes him a Center?

Haha no you didn’t. You assessed my statement as untrue, then asked me to prove it’s truth value.

I’m aware you never said Lee was a center, it appears you’re implying he isn’t a center. I’m implying he’s a tweener.

“Lee is effectiveness on offense comes from his quickness against Centers, we all know this.”

Yes I agree, move Lee to the 4 and you negate all of this.

your point is well taken.
Maybe it’s wishful thinking but I still believe there is a reasonable chance for us to get LeBron, so I’m holding my breath..

But turn the argument around, let’s say DW wouldn’t have done the Hill/Picks deal and the summer would come, and LeBron wouldnt sign because he by himself would have dried out the account and didnt have enough support talent-wise. Can you imagine the storm that would break loose over DW’s head? People would crucify him. This way he can always say that he was “in the position” to sign him and give him some leverage with who he wanted to play with…

How about if you don’t “play hard” IN GAMES, clearly Lee hasn’t “busted it” on the defensive end in 2 years. Yet, he gets to play night in and night out.

Harrington hasn’t “busted it” when it comes to passing the ball or defensively for that matter.

“D’Antoni does have his issues with some players I admit that but if I must repeat, you don’t practice hard, you don’t play.”

How about those that don’t play hard on the floor when it counts? Different?

“JJ didn’t need 40 mins to be showcased.”

JJ averaged 28 minutes. And he did need significant minutes to prove he was healthy after missing almost 30 games last year.

“Darko could have gotten 15-20 mins. considering the desperate need for a defensive presence in the middle.”

See this is where I agree, though I’d put it closer to 10-15mins. The coach was inept but I just don’t think 15mins of Darko would have made a huge difference. The Knicks have more problems than just paint protection.

I agree that you have to show something special in practice to earn playing time. But coaches can also see when someone’s practice efforts don’t translate into gametime performance. Some folks are great students but bad test takers, some are poor students but test well. Folks like Duhon and Al just could not get it together consistently during the games. And D’Antoni always talked about their practice effort. You earn playing time by practicing hard, but you keep playing time by performing in games. Darko probably never earned playing time in practice, but some of those other brothers should have lost their time due to performance. Bottom line, Darko should have played.

I still want to give D’Antoni a chance to see the third year through, but the theme “who has he helped to improve?” keeps haunting me. A coach is part administrator and part teacher. The only player that I can see has visibly improved his game is since he got here is Hill… and he’s not here anymore. I hate that trade. We showcased JJ to increase his trade value, and used Hill’s development time to do it, and in the end we couldn’t trade JJ without Hill… who is outplaying him. All the other issue between favoritism and rotation time, etc. can be argued either way, but not putting anything additional into your players and expecting to get something additional out is not coaching. But I’ll give him another year hoping he knows something I don’t know.

The inverse doesn’t really apply

1. I never said Lee was playing out of position.

2. I never defended Lee’s lack of defense.

Didn’t we agree on this? I wanted Lee’s defense to bite him in the ass this summer. Remember?

Haha, yes I did say it wasn’t true.

That’s my best Tommy impression.

But seriously, what makes him a Center? Or even a “tweener” if you will? A “Center in a PF’s body”?

Just curious.

Good points.

D’antoni turns a blind eye to defensive efforts as long as they get it done on the offensive end. Lee gets away with murder because he’s a necessary evil for the Knicks.

The flip was true with Hughes too. He played good D, but when he went stone cold on offense he got the hook. Though Hughes dirt poor attitude didn’t help.

The guy went all in, and I think he knows perfectly what’ll happen if he doesn’t get any of the top 3 targets. My guess is that D’antoni’ll jump ship.
I know many are happy with a combo of Johnson/Bosh, for example, and while I respect it, overpaying for Johnson would be critical mistake imo. A player like Gay, who I’m not so high on, but still has a long way to go and plays the SG well, could come in cheaper (depending on what the market commands) and would leave cash available for a center, which is a must.
What will always bother is the fact that D’antoni’s system is 100% PG guided, and until we have a good PG, it’ll never work how this guy wants it to, and I don’t see a good PG coming to this team soon.

Thanks Has for bringing up your man-crush David Lee again. The blog clearly talks about Milicic and how he plays during practice.

Does it explain how sucky AL plays all together on the court or how Lee’s defense sucks on the court? NO

If you slack in practice it shows that you don’t care on improving the chemistry with your team and it could demonstrate the lack of effort you put on the court.

Has, did you play Ball when you were a Kid? Practice makes perfect (not for the Knicks) but Milicic didn’t even show up for that and now you see the outcome.

I understand that legitimate flip side argument, but I think in the end it’s going to be a failure. (I hope I am wrong)

IMHO in order to attract a guy away from his current team, he has to either be unhappy, you have to give him more money, or you have to give him a better chance to win it all. The Knicks will not be in a position to do any of the three until 2011 when Curry comes off the books. Not being able to move Curry and the lower cap really put the kabash on the original plan, but Walsh didn’t adjust. Pray I am wrong,

I think this is a pretty bad team overall with a lot of holes. I believe from what I see on TeeVee that D’antoni has not gotten very much out of this group of average to below average NBA talent in 2 years time. It looks like a collective fail from the top down if we assume that we should have been marginally competitive in our 2 year demolition project. We have not been remotely such and that seems to me to suggest a COLLECTIVE fail.

What I find hilarious is the Marbury/Robinson/Milicic/Insert any Knick player name here/ revisionists who apparently think ITS ALL D’ANTONI’s FAULT. No matter what.They seem to ignore any of these players faults and exclusively blame this coach. While you’re at it…Why not blame ALL their coaches…they’ve all played pretty much the same way for their entire careers.

I mean Has posts this:
Fact:
Darko didn’t play when he was here.
Darko is playing in Minnesota and averaging nearly a block and a half in about 20 mins a game.

Whoopeedoo! 1.5 blocks!!! Really? Get thee a MAX contract!

Exactly how does this prove that D’antoni was trying to kill Darko’s career out of pique? That’s my issue, everyone can have an opinion…it’s the consistent character assassination, the assertions of nefarious motives and crazy conspiracy theories as FACT regarding D’antoni that I find really ignorant.

I am not necessarily defending the job he’s done, because at best, it’s suspect…but I think I can safely and sanely posit the argument that he is not out to destroy the careers of players or intentionally run this franchise into the ground.

Get over the trade it’s done already. Enjoy the what can happen with cap space. Im really curious to see what the coach does next year with more talent. Personally im not impressed with his system. I know he is not a defensive minded coach and his specialty is supposed to be offense but I just don’t see it. Teams seem to already know what the knicks are going to do before they do it and that they can only have a chance to win if the the team has a hot shooting start. I even heard a player say after blocking Lee’s shot attempt say ” Same sh*t over over and over” . How does guys like Kobe call him an offensive genuise? Is it that he gets credit for what stars do or is he good at coaching only stars . I know thats not he case with Adelman.

“Playing JJ didn’t help his trade value, he needed to be trade with “the 2nd best big man in the draft” + a swap of picks in 2011 and 2012’s 1st rounder and a 2nd rounder for good measure.”

I think Morey is just a better GM and knew Walsh was desperate. Still, that was way better than what his trade value was last year.

“As for Darko “slowing down” the offense, the Knicks stopped running a long time ago and we needed someone to “slow down the offense” of the other team. Darko could have helped in that department.”

That’s not true. Knicks stopped running 7SOL, but they still try to get transition points whenever they can. After a rebound a quick outlet pass is still the MO. Again I agree Darko should have gotten some minutes but with his defense comes a lack of offense, it’s part of the territory. He had no continuity on the offensive end, this was blatant in pre-season and the beginning of the season.

“1. I never said Lee was playing out of position.”

A “Center in a PF’s body”. Ok, so I can only gather that you think he is without a position completely. What makes you say that?

@SilentJay, The PG/Center discussion is crucial for the future of this team. D’Antoni needs a very good PG and that’s why I have always been puzzled (as so many others have) with us not trying to draft or trade for one (as we all know there were good PG’s after Curry). Suns not only had Naish but also Barbosa who was a perfect speedy guard with slasher and shooter qualities.

“MHO in order to attract a guy away from his current team, he has to either be unhappy, you have to give him more money, or you have to give him a better chance to win it all”

this has been debated many times. I belong to those who think that NY holds allure to LeBron beyond winning. He will bring the “winning” wherever he goes. He cannot bring THE CITY…. he has to come to it. And I don’t mean to be arrogant and assume everybody wants to play here… but something tells me LBJ does.

No one is trying to champion the cause for Team Darko. Or his MAX contract.

I am just trying to point out that playing a traditionakl lineup was clearly an option to pilsbury dougboy (trademark giggle) in the middle, _avi_ Lee.

What nefarious motives am I pointing to? What crazy conspiracy theories am I raising?

_’antoni has admitted to some of his own mistakes and flaws, he isn’t above them. Walsh has admitted to his own errors in judgement as well. It’s ok _’antoni & Walsh fans you can admit them too, they already have.

He’s got such a great touch around the rim I think he’s made to play around the basket. A lot of today’s NBA’s 4 are expected to have enough of a 3pt shot to at least be respected from 20ft out. Lee doesn’t have that. Right now, for me Lee is a 5 who can’t defend his position and I don’t think he’s be effective at stopping the 4 either. If Lee keeps extending his range then maybe I’d change my mind.

For me, playing Lee at the 5 or 4 would depend mostly on who were my other front court players and what system I’m running. Darko is good defensively, no doubt, but for me he’s not nearly a good enough all-around player for me to push him to the 4 for a significant amount of time, especially if I’d have to radically change my system to suit him.

I’d still give Darko some minutes though if we’re getting abused inside.

Ben Gordon is a 2 in a PGs body but he’s still a 2 guard.

I’d hope not, but seeing him just give up on his team and the game in more games that I can count is really frustrating. We all knew he was famous for his unfair doghouse. Nate got in and out of it constantly, but at least was given a chance after spending significant time there. In Darko’s case, I really can’t tell how many minutes he played after hitting the bench and never seeing the court again without getting another chance, when our main concern was the lack of team rebounding on both sides of the court and the need for more blocks.
Marbury’s a different case altogether, I personally think it could’ve been handled better both by D’antoni and Walsh, so he could’ve later been used as a trading chip for his big contract. But, it went down as it went down, and nothing was obtained from an ex all-star.
Now, imo, this can’t be just coincidence.Nate got his chance because D’antoni didn’t have any options, since Duhon was destroying the team. On the other hand, when rebounding and blocking was lacking, Darko couldn’t be found. C’mon, this doesn’t happen by osmosis. The ultimate decision in who plays or not is the coach’s, and the only one that got a chance was Nate, that’s it.

It’s possible to rebuild through free agents but it’s the cap space that’s more intriging the al harrignton thomas trades were to free up cap space ie short contracts but still trying to stay competitive it’s not alot of young players that’s good that has the short contract that dw was looking for. I understand what u are saying about marbury but he was never on the level of tmac wouldn’t comand nearly half of what houston got and most of us was so disgusted with marbs we just wanted him gone

I agree but Jeffries didn’t play because of intangibles, that was just a bit of a bonus (if it could be called that). Jeffries played because he needed his value built as high as possible.

But I agree Darko should have gotten some minutes. My only discrepancy is that I don’t think it would have had much of an impact on the team record if at all.

So you think Harrington and Lee are “busting it” on defense in practice?

Practice definitely makes perfect and no one has gotten better under this coach, other than giving Lee the confidence to take the outside jumper, but _’antoni will always tell his players to keep shooting (see Jeffries, Duhon and Chandler earlier in the season) everyone has the green light. House suddenly forgot what a good shot is after playing for a championship and learning self-control and discipline in Boston. Coincidence or conspiracy theory?

“You really see no growth in our players individually or as a team other than a few players just doing their own thing.”

That’s the ‘system’

What happens with EC’s contract before the deadline is critical. DW has to take advantage in the best way possible, either get young asset + picks + big contract, or play the idealist move and go after a disgruntled star.
Since we don’t know what’ll be the cap status for 2011, Walsh has to move quickly in any move he has to make.
I too foresee a summer of Gay, Boozer, and Haywood or Camby (which wouldn’t make me sad, but I’d be completely bummed and looking for DW’s head).
We never know what’s coming. I think the draft will be a sign of what he plans to do If he buys a 1st rounder, it’ll mean he’s not looking for 2 max players, since the money won’t be enough.

I’ll get over the trade *AFTER* we get some value for it. I’m optimistic about putting together a strongly competitive team with the cap space, but I think we traded away what we needed. Hill just reminds me of a young Mourning (just without the mean streak). With a little more coaching up, we’d have our big man at a bargain price, rather than looking for someone old or out of our price range. Whether we like the system or not, it will be here as long as the coach is, and Hill is the type of big he wants: strong rebounder, 15 ft jumper, runs the break, shot blocker, help defender. Now we’re going to try to pay 6 mil for what he had for 2 mil. That really cuts the benefit of trading away JJ’s contract.

I really hope you’re right, but I just don’t know. Everyday I keep making different scenarios to the alternatives DW’ll have.
I still lack a way to find a PG that can run this team to become a facilitator for a guy like LBJ or Wade or Bosh, but I don’t see one that can play under D’antoni ball, since I think that in Phoenix Nash was the real coach and Mike assisted. If that’s the case, then DW should be focused in getting a PG from top tier list, but that ain’t happening.
And for those that actually think Rubio will find his way to NY, I think it’s insane. The only idea that comes to my head is if Minny gets no. 1 pick and takes Wall, then they’d probably look to let go either Flynn or Rubio.

I agree. This coach is a mess.

Van Gundy, the former Knicks coach, agreed that it is difficult to lure great players away from good teams. But he said the Nets and the Knicks were doing the right thing. Even if they miss on James and Wade, they can still use the cap space to significantly upgrade their rosters. Or they can hold the cap space until 2011, when Carmelo Anthony and Kevin Durant could be on the market.

“Both places will get somebody good, really good — if not this year, then next year or the year after,’’ said Van Gundy, who works for ESPN. “I don’t think anybody can argue with the plan. In fact, you could make the case that Donnie Walsh, if he pulls this off, is executive of the year this year. No one back when he took over thought that he could get under the cap. And he’s done it. And done it in a big way.’’

SHUT YOUR BLOODCLOT MOUTH!!!

LOL

I just think the Knicks do a terrible job of maximizing someones value, especially during a time when they are rebuilding.

We turn potential trade chips into dead weight just because our coach doesn’t think the player fits his system. Well guess what your system doesn’t matter when you are rebuilding. What matters is clearing cap space and getting draft picks.

Between Marbury, Curry, Darko, and Nate, all of these players were benched because the coach didn’t want to use them in his system. Each one of these could have had value if you showcased them the right way. Instead, most turn into dead weight who need to be bought out at the end of their contracts or traded for scraps.

Can’t wait until the “The Hill Debate” thread. There’s a lot of games left for him to prove this “coach” doesn’t have a clue.

The guy stuck to his plan, and that’s commendable, he sacrificed a lot to get that cash, and he needs to put it to good use. OKC will match any offers that KD’ll get so forget about him and Melo’s still a mystery, but imo he’s staying.
Waiting for 2011 isn’t an option. We have no idea what the cap status will be, hence the need to make the most of the money available. After that, use well EC’s contract and try to build a playoff bound team through this next free agency.
It doesn’t take being a former NBA coach to guess the difficulty of luring stars away from their homes. If this team isn’t significantly upgraded and they don’t get into the playoffs, Houston will take our pick and we’ll have to deal with a late 1st rounder instead of having a close look at the lottery, and the same goes for 2012. Since that option is gone, there’s extra pressure to make a competitive team during the summer.

I forgot Jeff Van Gundy is the authority on General Managers and NBA Executives.

If Tommy doesn’t write it, I’ll do a guest post.

how many losing seasons do we need to prove that both D’antoni and Walsh are the wrong choices?

“…you could make the case that Donnie Walsh, if he pulls this off, is executive of the year this year.”

Also if he doesn’t pull this off he will cripple this franchise for at least the next 3-5 years. It could be potentially uglier than the last 10 years combined if could believe that’s possible.

“SHUT YOUR BLOODCLOT MOUTH!!!!”

Everyone has been debating without the name calling and the ignoorant and beligerent rhetoric and then DVJ comes along…

Most Centers aren’t leading the break or filling the wing on fast break/transistion baskets. Darko wasn’t that slow in the open court either, he could have been the outlet man and even beat some bigs down court for the secondary break.

He could probably beat Gallinari down court in a foot race and he’s the starting SF. I’m exaggerating, but not much sadly.

Why would anyone here be afraid of criticizing? Do the Knicks have vile henchmen?

“If we were going to use Milcic, it should have been with Lee in a more traditional lineup. It really only needed to be in games where Lee was getting abused on defense and needed help rebounding, on defense, and protecting the paint from perimeter players.”

Here is what I wrote above:

“D’antoni was his usual stubborn self and refused to adapt his philosophies/attitude to the needs for a defensive minded center. The fact that Jeffries, Hill and Curry had priority didn’t help the situation.”

It looks like the first sentence we’re in agreement.

The second part is where I disagree. I sympathize with D’antoni only in the dilemma of having to play Jeffries. It sucks and maybe what we had to give up to get rid of JJ was too much, but trying to trade him was a priority. Hill and Curry should have received minutes before Darko too, which they did. Unfortunately D’antoni recklessly stingy with those minutes.

All I’m saying is D’antoni not getting enough minutes for Hill or Curry (when he was healthy) is a MUCH more egregious offense than not giving minutes to Darko. I don’t know, someone how that means I’m afraid to criticize the coach.

“Plus we are talking 15 to 20 minutes for Darko.”

LOOK WHAT I WROTE!

“I wish Darko got some minutes in an attempt to add some paint protection…”

I said I don’t think that Millicic getting 15 minutes is going to have a significant impact on the win column, if any at all. It certainly hasn’t for Minne.

From now on, maybe you should have Biggie and Has do your thinking for you, they’re much better at it than you.

“I sympathize with D’antoni only in the dilemma of having to play Jeffries.”

I just wonder how true that is. If he HAD to play him, did it need to be at over 30+ minutes a game (when he wasn’t in foul trouble or hurt).

Or is that something we fans dreamt up in order to justify him playing over Hill?

Funny thing is if he had played Hill he may have boosted the rookie’s value enough to get someone to take Jeffries’ contract (which will have value as an expiring NEXT YEAR btw) without giving up a handful of potential lottery (hope not) picks.

Well that’s Achilles heel of transition offense heavy basketball styles, they require centers who can move which is a rare commodity. Thus why D’antoni seems to rely on tweeners.

Darko was not the slowest center in the league, but the transition game also requires passing, court vision and handles which he was also not great in.

Dark is too used to the half court set and seems lost in transition. He just didn’t seem to be able to get the system down, he’s not the most heady player in the NBA.

I do think he should have received more minutes and that probably would have helped him figure it out, but I don’t think it would have affected the Knicks record. And if more minutes were made available they should have Hill and Curry before Darko, imo.

D’antoni not giving minutes to Hill is the real f*ck up, who cares about Darko.

“Houston will take our pick and we’ll have to deal with a late 1st rounder instead of having a close look at the lottery, ”

Why? Houston will not be good next year and they won’t make the playoffs….like they won’t make the playoffs this year.

I think it’s worth noting that Minnesota is one of the 4 teams that has a worse than the Knicks in defensive efficiency.

Isiah had 5….Walsh got the owner under the cap….how long do you think he’ll be here?

Once again your oraclesque powers make you know that the Rockets’ll have a worse season than the Knicks, huh?
Hmmm…
Why don’t you use those same powers to tell me exactly what’s gonna happen during the summer.

Why should we compare this present cycle -in any way- to one of the darkest (if not the darkest) in this franchise’s history?
Imo, Walsh will be here less than 5 years, if he fails this summer, then maybe 2 and a half.
Getting under the cap doesn’t mean success. Ask some of the Detroit fans.

Yeah, and Minny has 2 picks (guaranteed top 15 and the other top 3 probably) coming up for this draft + the one on 2011. They’ll have around 15 mil in cap for the upcoming FAgency, so I don’t see them in such a bad spot to get great rookies + one or two solid pieces during the summer.
They’ll be difficult playoff team sooner rather than later.
That’s a rebuilding process. Sure, it didn’t take 2 years, but they’ll come in with at least 5 or 6 drafted players with a ton of future.

Many argue that giving Hill away also admitting that he screwed up in the draft. I wonder if he would’ve given up his lottery pick had he been a Jennings or Lawson.

“I just wonder how true that is. If he HAD to play him, did it need to be at over 30+ minutes a game (when he wasn’t in foul trouble or hurt).”

Well if you want to argue semantics, they didn’t have to HAVE to play Jeffries, but I think it was the right move. Jeffries value was definitely higher than it was at this time last year.

The Knicks defense has always been bad, but it’s been decidedly worse since JJ was traded in my opinion.

“Funny thing is if he had played Hill he may have boosted the rookie’s value enough to get someone to take Jeffries’ contract (which will have value as an expiring NEXT YEAR btw) without giving up a handful of potential lottery (hope not) picks.”

That maybe true, maybe not, we can only guess. But I’m sure using Hill to unload Jeffries was the original plan though.

Regardless I agree that Hill should have played more.

What does that have to do with Darko? He probably won’t be there next year.

“Sure, it didn’t take 2 years, but they’ll come in with at least 5 or 6 drafted players with a ton of future.”

Unfortunately Walsh’s plan had a 2 year deadline. Lets hope it pays off, or I assure you we can look forward to that nice long rebuilding process like Minne. If Lebron, Wade and Bosh are a no-go, then I hope some of that cap is turned into future draft picks.

Why does DA bench everyone who has a good game for the team? We will never know. It was five or seven minutes to go in the 2nd quarter versus the spurs. Harrington, Chandler, Douglas, Walker, House brought the lead to like three after trailing by thirteen. Why would you even think about bringing in Gallo after the way he started the game? Wouldn’t you just ride out that quarter and let house, Doug and walker’s d bring us back? Then in the 3rd let gallo get a fresh start and help us with scoring from there? I just don’t get it. And ones defending DA don’t knw what they are talking about.

>Why would anyone here be afraid of criticizing? Do the Knicks have vile henchmen?<

Media types are sometimes afraid because they can lose access to sources within he organization and make themselves irrelevant

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