Thoughts for Monday

by Tommy Dee on March 15th, 2010 at 11:48 am

- I think the biggest thing I took from watching “Winning Time” was the depiction of Larry Brown and why he ultimately can only remain with certain teams for relatively short periods of time:

Players don’t the guy, but you don’t have to really like someone to have success in this league.

I really appreciated Reggie Miller saying that the Pacer players couldn’t stand Brown, whom he dubbed a perfectionist “in an imperfect game.” Brown expects the game to be played the right way and the Pacers really did play the right way. Of course he does, he’s a snob, he went to North Carolina. Reggie must have felt the same way about how he did things, UCLA knows a thing or two about hoops. Ultimately, the Pacers lacked superior talent but, like the Knicks,  never took a possession off and played as one until they needed Reggie to make shots.

In reference to the team not liking Brown, Miller followed with the comment that the players “had to do the right thing.” Spike Lee irony aside, doing the right thing is such a novel concept isn’t it? Make no mistake, by “doing the right thing” Miller meant “internally when it came to the organization the players would shut up, not bitch, come to work every day and play hard,” which they did.

I hear a lot of people defend Stephon Marbury in regards to how Mike D’Antoni handled his situation. It’s a fair point. D’Antoni, it appears, had no intention of playing Marbury and should have told him that much or at least someone in the organization should have given him the word. Maybe D’Antoni was open to playing him until Steph learned he wasn’t going to start and Starbury popped off. Who knows.

What we do know is that Steph popped off to Larry Brown, and it made for an uncomfortable locker room. Steph openly called out Brown for questioning his manhood, a practice that Brown made famous for with Chauncey Billups and Allen Iverson- who both made it to the Finals with Brown on the sidelines.

We also know that Steph went off on Isiah. There were rumors that Antonio Davis, a veteran to Brown’s act, was mocked during his time in NY and demanded a trade. Imagine that. A veteran of the Knicks-Pacers battles and a real professional, was ostracized for being, well, professional. I’m not saying I know what happened, but based on plenty of conversations, I have an idea. And that’s not to single out Steph who was the franchise player and relished the role, it’s simply to make the point that Brown’s Pacers, as well as his effort with the 76ers in 2001 and obviously the Detroit Pistons in 2004, exemplified doing “right thing.” And it highlights just how wretched the Knicks locker room was during Brown’s one year here. The coach’s rift with Thomas, to me, had more to do with Larry saying, “what on earth have you assembled here?” and less to do with “I’m a tyrant.”

What does that mean for this edition of the team? Well, I think it’s justifiable to have questions about the coach. I believe he wants players to do the “right thing” but he can’t enforce it. At the end of the day there has to be a belief that even though you may not like your coach you can still play at a really high level and the Pacers and virtually every team Brown ever coached, except the Knicks, proved that.

- So Toney Douglas now has the chance that everyone has been asking for and I’m happy for him. It has been talked about often that D’Antoni’s rational behind playing Chris Duhon was twofold. One, it was because he was an efficient assist-turnover player (stats wise- I, of course, maintain that bad shots on a poor offensive rebounding team count as turnovers and Duhon’s pulls from 3 several time per game should have been tacked on to his A/T ratio), but secondly because D’Antoni hopes Duhon, and other veterans, can sign contracts next year. 

I would have started Douglas from day one, okay maybe month 4, but he would have been in my rotation. I love his ability to pressure the ball because I’m a fan of deflections from the guard position. They are like blocks. They can take points and momentum away in the same manner charges can. Should Douglas “learn” the pick and roll, seeing that he already is an accomplished catch and shoot threat, Douglas will be a real player in this league. My boy, HaS noted he’s a Lindsey Hunter-type, which is a pretty good call.  Douglas is a better overall defender because he’s longer in the passing lanes and I think TD will be a better big game playoff contributor, which wasn’t Hunter’s M.O.  In 147 career playoff games, Hunter averaged just 30% shooting (26% from 3.)

Speaking of which, maybe it’s just me but TD may be holding players like David Lee accountable defensively.  It’s been said he’s still learning the pick and roll. Maybe I’m reading too much into it, but Douglas is a born leader who ran the pick and roll all through college. He may not be pass first, but keep an eye on when and if he decides to give the ball to players who don’t bust it on the other end.
  • Lebris Jamosh aka ridiculous upside

    Why even bring up Starbury? It was obvious when he played in Boston that he couldn’t play anymore. Dantoni wanted to get rid of the losing culture and that started with the clown PG.

    All the know-it-alls that whined about this — turns out the coach knew more than them. Shocker!

  • J_Starks3

    First I would like to say that I enjoyed every minute of the documentary. Enjoyed the hard nosed defense that I miss so much.

    Second, when Larry Brown was here I NEVER thought that he sabotaged his tenure to get out of the contract the way it was implied by the media. He was just trying to get the right mixture in and apply some much needed discipline to a team that needed it badly.

    Which leads me to my third point. Larry was quick (sometimes too quick)to pull the trigger on playing time if he thought that a player was not doing the right thing, like playing defense or making the extra pass. This is my biggest concern with our “offensive coordinator”. Yes he is questionable in his late game play calling and his substitution is shady but the fact that one player can go a whole game allowing the opposing team to drive to the lane at will without taking their most prized possetion (game time) is incredible. Ask any coach in the league what is the best way to get your point across to a player and they would say take their playing time and they will get the point. I hate writting this after a great defensive effort last night but I have said it before and it still holds true.

  • J_Starks3

    The fact that he had not played in several months, was not acquainted with his teammates and the playbook had nothing to do with it right????

    I am not a Marbury apologist but the truth is that he could have done SOMETHING.

    Better play than Duhon……….trade him for something or at the very least given Duhon some rest so he didn’t run out of gas at the end of last year like he did.

  • oscar f

    Don’t care about the first half of the article since it just brings back too many bad memories. The knicks just came off a good win against a a really hot Dallas team and I just wanna enjoy the idea that TD is improving. I read people write that he only goes right and that teams will pick up on that. That would be a bad scouting report on D since even from college he had a nice right to left crossover. He guard plays him like he cant goe left he might exibit that skill and the guard might get embarssed. I also don’t see him like hunter on the O but definately on D. I hope he stay compossed which is what I have been impressed with the most the last few games. If he does he will be a nice piece going foward and he will maintain some consistency.

  • DwaneT

    I never wanted Brown here and knew it wouldn’t work. That team was never going to play for him, and there was no plan to get knew players right away. Dolan’s fail. I’ve said it before, either they needed D’Antoni with Isaih to played high-priced-jack-it-up ball, or they needed Brown with Walsh to play year-round-training-camp ball. As for resurrecting Marbury talk, he was from NY but he was not Knick material. He is not a leader, and the star of the Knicks is by default their leader for a lot of reasons. He wanted to be the star without being a leader, so he shouldn’t have been here.

    Now that I’ve gotten that out of the way, Both Brown and D’Antoni are such extremists that it’s hard choose. One beats players into submission, the other cuddles them in hopes that they’ll do it by themselves. Yes Brown has a Championship, but he hasn’t been close since. He doesn’t make changes in players, he changes the players (sound familiar). There are alot of theories why D’Antoni did what he did the way he did it, but it looks like he was more concerned with protecting his rep as a players coach by taking care of the vets than he was developing a core of young players who could win. Maybe it’s because not playing the vets would have hit the pockets of their agents over the summer, and sabotaged his ability to bring in max FA’s who had the same agents. Maybe. The bottom line is, in some of those blow-out victories TD, Will, Gallo, Lee and Hill should have been on the floor together for at least a quarter… if you are serious about them being the future. Changes in every society take place in the youth first, and the Knick’s locker room should have been no different.

  • Clancy3434

    The cricisim of Mike D’Antoni and the coaching staff is completely ridiculous. The veterans on this team know full well that they likely will not be here after June. Why would they play hard for a franchise that has no interest in keeping them?

    D’Antoni has more wins with this rag tag group of young kids and uninterested veterans than any of the previous coaches could muster out of the likes of Marbury, Randolph and Crawford…

    Judge D’Antoni on next year and beyond. If they stink once they have actual, ya know, talent… then let the criticism rain. Until then, give me a break.

    If Pat Riley were the coach of this team, he’d quit and let an assistant handle the job, then push him out of the way once the free agents came in.

    Oh, and the benching of Stephon Marbury is still the best thing any Knick coach has done since Van Gundy left.

  • Lebris Jamosh aka ridiculous upside

    It wouldn’t have mattered. Marbury is the pg that lead the knicks to couple 23 win seasons. He wasn’t getting the knicks anywhere but the lotto. LOL at some team giving up assets for Starbury — not happening.

    What Larry Brown tried to do was purge this roster and get rid of the losing culture. Exactly what Dantoni/Walsh have been doing –getting the garbage out, starting with Marbury. Continued with QRich, Nate, and the rest of the losers.

    In 2 years, the me-first scrubs from the Isiah era will have gone from 15 down to 0, once Curry is gone(I don’t count Chandler as one of ‘them’). Larry tried to do the same but went about it the wrong way. The current regime had a better plan and have stuck to it.

  • HaS

    “Maybe D’Antoni was open to playing him until Steph learned he wasn’t going to start and Starbury popped off. Who knows.”

    He was coming off the bench for the whole preseason and training camp, I doubt that was the issue. The coach just had a grudge, team be damned.

    “Why even bring up Starbury? It was obvious when he played in Boston that he couldn’t play anymore.”

    I agree why bring him up, but I guess you didn’t watch the preseason or clips from training camp where he played well and was the best point guard on the team.

  • Lebris Jamosh aka ridiculous upside

    I factor 4 losing years with Starbury at PG than meaningless preseason games. That numbnutz was NOT the answer.

  • J_Starks3

    Teams have given up PLENTY of assets for players worse than Marbury. Cap relief is as good as gold in the NBA.

    Plus I never said that Marbury was going to be a difference maker but at the very least it would have been a 15 to 20 minute relief for Duhon. Some people say the reason that we plunged last year was because of Duhon’s legs (I don’t think so) why not give him the rest right???

  • J_Starks3

    I am going to do this Has style.

    “The veterans on this team know full well that they likely will not be here after June. Why would they play hard for a franchise that has no interest in keeping them?”

    Maybe for a new contract next year??

    “D’Antoni has more wins with this rag tag group of young kids and uninterested veterans than any of the previous coaches could muster out of the likes of Marbury, Randolph and Crawford”

    More wins…….no rings.

    “Judge D’Antoni on next year and beyond. If they stink once they have actual, ya know, talent… then let the criticism rain. Until then, give me a break.”

    Why give him a break???? So when Lebron leaves Ohio next year Mike Brown is going to get a pass because he won’t have the best player on the planet??? The way I see it if LBJ comes KIki V will be able to coach this team.

    “Oh, and the benching of Stephon Marbury is still the best thing any Knick coach has done since Van Gundy left.”

    Name one good thing that came out of that benching. ONE. I dare ya!!!

    Come on.

    How did I do Has???

  • HaS

    True. Duhon proved to be the “answer”.

    Have a nice day.

  • x-man

    Aaaah boy! Here’s another winner! Hire a coach, pay him millions and not expect anything of him like coaching, developing the younger players, hold them accountable and etc.

    One day some of ya many ask youself, could we have used one fo the stuff animals from the Kia Sorrento commericals to be our coach for the last 2 years if no expectations for this coach. We all be dancing in the streets to “How you like me know?”

    Pat Riley has RINGS! Our coach has even been to the big show period!

  • SilentJay

    I think Marbury, who really didn’t live up to any expectations as a Knick, still had high stock around the league when Pringles came in, not to mention a big expiring contract, much like T-Mac. The only thing I had against D’antoni was making Steph the eternal warden of the doghouse, and pretty much putting DW into a corner (add it to the fact that Donnie hasn’t really shown much leadership attributes when it comes to his communication with D’antoni), so Marbury was lost in oblivion before the deadline where he could’ve been used for a nice trade to gain young assets + 1st or 2nd rounders.
    That’s my beef. You didn’t wanna play him, fine, give him the chance to be an asset. This team could’ve gotten sometihng back from him.

  • x-man

    Tommy Dee, Why u still running thru the meadows reminiscing about other coaches? Does day dreaming about Brown makes you find solace in D’antoni.

    Well. Larry Brown can be a Diva because he’s won a ring in college, the NBA and he took at least 2 separate teams to the NBA finals so far. Yeah Yeah, he ain’t Mariah Carey but he is sort of a Jennifer Hudson!

    I so trying to do an intervention because when it come to our current coach, you need to move on playa! He ain’t worth your time! He’s a doooooog!

  • Hydr0

    We weren’t taking back any long term contracts which is why Marbury’s expiring was useless to us. Look at how much long term $$ Houston took back on the T-Mac deal. We couldn’t do anything like that without ruining the 2010 plan. It didn’t matter to us if Marbury played or not.

  • SilentJay

    Yup. Who cares how many losing seasons the guy had, he was still 10x the PG than Duhon will ever be, and right, Duhon isn’t a complete waste of space and oxygen. Damn.

  • SilentJay

    That’s the thing, we could’ve taken 2 year contract and we’d been just fine. It’s not like DW was looking to get any people for that next offseason, was he?
    You all know what happened next with Z-Bo and Craw. Why couldn’t that be done with Starbury?

  • NoVaCaInE

    “Maybe D’Antoni was open to playing him until Steph learned he wasn’t going to start and Starbury popped off. Who knows.”

    HaS you beat me to it. Sometimes idk with Tommy…

  • NoVaCaInE

    “The coach’s rift with Thomas, to me, had more to do with Larry saying, “what on earth have you assembled here?” and less to do with “I’m a tyrant.” ”

    You mean Larry “trade Ariza for Steve Francis even though I have Steph” Brown. Come on Tommy. I am in no way defending Isiah Thomas. He did a terrible job here in NY but LB is no saint. He stirred things up everywhere he’s been. He even fought with Management and the Owner. LB was NUTS!!!

  • Lebris Jamosh aka ridiculous upside

    32 wins > 23 wins

    Duhon sucks so does Starbury. You have a nice day too.

  • Lebris Jamosh aka ridiculous upside

    “Name one good thing that came out of that benching. ONE. I dare ya!!! ”

    Same good that comes out of taking the garbage out of your house and placing it on the sidewalk. Gets rid of that awful stench.

    I’m convinced people on here complain just to complain. Marbury? What???

  • ScottD

    To me, the Dallas blowout shows that when everyone is on the same page, with the same mission, that even with this line up, the Knicks can win.
    If the same level of effort was given every night, I have to beleive that we would be higher in the standings.

    The coach coaches, the players play the game, and if they don’t put forth a good solid effort, then I have to mostly blame the players.
    A coach (manager) can only motivate a player (employee) so much.
    In life, some are just more motivated than others.
    Anybody who is paying attention can see the difference in defensive effort put forth by Douglas, as compared to Harrington.

    If all of the players gave the same level of effort that Douglas gives, then you would immediately seem an improvement in the standings.
    That’s why I believe that we not only need talented players for the upcoming seasons, but players who have pride and motivation.

    We’ve essentially been watching a bunch of lazy f*cks, and it is painful as a fan to have to see this.
    I know plenty of guys who have day jobs, and then go to the gym at night after a hard days work and give more effort (albeit with less talent) than these overpaid crybabies!

    The NBA seriously needs to eliminate these long term contracts that protect the lazy, out of condition, and generally selfish players who exist in this league.

    Obviously, there are a fair amount of professionals in the league who are self motivated.

  • J_Starks3

    Soooooo you got nothing…………..

  • Lebris Jamosh aka ridiculous upside

    My reasoning is in there. You choose not to see it. Your loss.

    And what is “More wins…….no rings” Did I miss Starbury’s rings before Dantoni? What does that even mean?

  • Hydr0

    What 2 year deals were worth the trouble? And dealing with marbury starting/not starting etc there would have been a lot of trouble. We basically only got harrington back for ZBO and Crawford The other guys were useless.

    Who could have really helped us in a marbury trade with a contract that ended before 2010 summer assuming marbury played well? I don’t think we missed out on much. People want to shed big and long (that’s what she said lol) contracts in these types of deals, not a good player with only one extra year (which was the only thing worth our while) and we weren’t getting back draft picks for him either.

  • J_Starks3

    Sooooooooo ya got nothing.

    Facts……..do you have any????

    Comparing players to garbage is not one.

  • HaS

    “32 wins > 23 wins”

    HAHAHAHA!

    Yeah, that’s a whole lot “greater than”.

    Actually, Marbury didn’t play much that particular 23 win season and was out more than half the year (he played 24 games total) with surgery and his father passing away.

    So yea, “32 wins > 23 wins”.

    Why do I bother.

  • HaS

    “How did I do Has???”

    Hey man, I got enough heat on me as it is! LOL

  • HaS

    Oh and I just noticed the nod for my initial analysis of Toney as Linsey-esque.

    Thanks Tommy.

  • HaS

    “…and we weren’t getting back draft picks for him either.”

    Can’t argue with “facts”.

    LOL

  • jg2112

    I respect everybody’s opinion, but personally I really don’t get why Knicks fan wanted to give Marbury an opportunity.

    Wait before you jump on me. Sure, he came in shape and “Ready to play”. Excuse me, but I would have done the same thing if it was my FINAL YEAR with a contract. I would try to get my a$$ to work and try to make some sort of impression to get another shot else where. So I don’t buy that in a contract year.

    Why should I care about Marbury when he disrespected (in my opinion) the team that I love? I mean, he got into a riff with Larry Brown, then Isaiah, jesus he was supposed to LEAD this team. And he did alright, he lead everybody else to not giving a crap and having NO DISCIPLINE whatsoever. Nobody cared, nobody put an effort on the court. If Stephon didn’t liked coach pushing him for hard work, instead of doing it for the team he said “F’ it” so I say “F’ u too”.

    He never tried to work things out in his finals years here, only in his final year. I would have taken ANYBODY no matter how much it would suck, over Stephon ANYTIME of the year.

    Normal people have to take crap from their bosses and we can’t complain. We have to shut up and do “our thing”.

    Stephon Didn’t, so I would rather have the Nets record before having him on my team again.

    Again, that’s just MY opinion.

  • Hydr0

    one thing usually holds true with steph, the team that he leaves usually improves…at least we have that going for us

  • Clancy3434

    Donnie Walsh made the decision that he would rather sign a coach of D’Antoni’s sature when he was available and give him a two-year pass than wait until 2010 and hope that a good coach is also out there. Combine in D’Antoni’s obvious solid relationships with the majority of the free agent targets they are going after, and it’s a no brainer.

    Pat Riley has never gotten a ring without having a top 3 player in the league on his team. When it was obvious the 90′s Knicks window was closing, he bolted… when it was obvious the early 2000′s Heat would have to rebuild, he bolted… once he got Shaq to go with D-Wade, he had a change of heart and dumped SVG to the sidelines.

    The only coach in the last 20 years who’s won a championship without a top 5 player in the league on his team is Larry Brown. But he wasn’t good enough for us, either.

    Does Mike D’Antoni have a ring? No. Has he ever even been to the NBA Finals? No. Robert Horry took care of that.

    Simple fact is that Jim Dolan’s inept management allowed this franchise to turn into the Clippers East, only worse. And everything done over the past two seasons was simply Donnie Walsh digging out from the piles of steaming hot dog **** that was left here by the Isiah Thomas regime.

    Donnie Walsh took over a franchise in the depths of salary cap hell, with no young players and future draft picks already promissed to other teams.

    We now sit with some promising young players, more cap space than anyone else in the league, and a coach who has a great relationship with most of the top players in the league. It took two more seasons of hell to dig out from what Dolan allowed to happen. But we’re here… months away from the biggest light at the end of the tunnel since the ’85 Draft.

    And still people need to find a reason to complain… as if keeping the bunch of lazy bums that were here (and in many cases still ARE here) would have led to an 8 seed in the playoffs.

  • Clancy3434

    I’ll follow suit…

    “Maybe for a new contract next year??”

    These players know full well that their rights will have to be renounced in order to get the max cap room, and have zero chance of coming back.

    But on that… what, David Lee isn’t playing hard? The guys with heart will play hard, the lazy a-holes left over from the Isiah regime will remain lazy a-holes.

    “More wins…….no rings.”

    The combined brains of Dean Smith, Bob Knight and James Naismith himself couldn’t win a ring with this roster, or any Knick roster this decade, for that matter.

    “Why give him a break???? So when Lebron leaves Ohio next year Mike Brown is going to get a pass because he won’t have the best player on the planet??? The way I see it if LBJ comes KIki V will be able to coach this team.”

    No, I can tell that Mike Brown is a god awful coach by watching him run the 1v5 offense with the Cavs. The best thing the Knicks have going for them re: their chances of landing LeBron is that Fugazi Al Roker is still coaching that team. He’s terrible.

    That’s what you want? Mike Brown? You think giving a guy the ball at the top of the key and having every other player stand around and watch is good basketball?

    Jordan used to do it that way, too… then they fired Doug Collins and Jax and Tex were able to convince Jordan to, ya know, run an offense. The rest, as they say, is history.

    “Name one good thing that came out of that benching. ONE. I dare ya!!!

    Come on.”

    The benching ultimately led to the dismissal of a disruptive, locker room cancer who’s career was and is shot. This process was sped up exponentionly by getting rid of that bum.

    Marbury’s career has really taken off since the Knicks got rid of him. He’s really proven that D’Antoni and Walsh were wrong in doing what he’s doing…

    Think the Shanxi Zhongyu Brave Dragons will get the 8 seed in the Far Far East this year?

    Gimmie a break…