Hopefully Putting This Argument to Rest

i think we all agree the plan is about 2010 and Donnie HAS TO bring in a superstar THIS SUMMER in order to even think about a victory lap.

Im not saying — nor did i ever say — that there should be no more moves after 2010.. But the CBA uncertainty and the Hill/multiple picks trade puts more onus on Donnie to make his defining moves THIS summer.

There is no way inmy mind anyone (includig managment and the most optimistic of the fan base) can say that getting a minor FA or two and fiilling in with one year players this summer while waiting for a chance at Melo NEXT year is anything but an abject failure.

IT doesnt mean Donnie loses his job (Dolan has kept Sather around through bigger blunders) for sure… . It just means the plan failed, we admit failure and we move on..

Agreed. It is all about July, 2010. Gotta keep an open mind about July, 2011 but all the moves have been made with July, 2010 in mind and it is right around the corner. It is fast approaching and everybody is getting nervous now. Time for guessing who is staying or going is coming to a close and it will be time for the real deal.

We absolutely need to sign at least one max free agent this year. Donnie traded away Hill, a likely lotter pick in 2011 if our roster doesn’t improve a lot, and our 1st round pick in 2012. We already could have signed ANY free agent our traded for ANY player this year. The trade gave us room to add another max contract our to make some good trades. If we end up waiting for 2011 to sign Melo than the plan definitely failed. BiggieSmalls is 100% right.

I know the heartaches of watching defeats and believing and hearing 2010 or bust and now the slogan is shifting to 2011. Another hard pill to swallow as a fan but as I always say I saw our last championship, so I can take watching another failed venture but I dont like it and not getting prime beef this offseason is a failed venture.

Donnie wants us to be patient so lets see what comes our way in July

“And no one, NOT ONE FAN, argued, at least to me.People understood and respected Walsh had a plan.”

I wasn’t at TKB when Walsh first came, but at the Fix I commented that I liked the plan IF: (1) the team remained competitive while we rebuilt and (2) we did not trade away draft picks and built the team’s foundantion through the draft. I did not see a FA coming here if we consistently won under 30 games.

“I think we can assume that they’ll buy some late draft picks.”

We disagree here Tommy. I don’t think the Knicks can afford to buy late picks in 2010 and still have room for two max FAs. The draft is before July 1.

“Why can’t they offer Chris Bosh the max in a sign and trade?”

What do the Raptors get back that is a realistic trade for them?

“They gave up Jordan Hill, who most of you were calling a bust but now all of a sudden love, and a 2012 first, which if all goes to plan, will be at least in the 20s. And the switch in 2011 is worse-case scenario thinking. And again, they may very well have one at the end of this draft to go along with 2 second rounders.”

This statement goes along with a lot of IFs. Donnie is sitting at the poker table with all of his chips in and a not very good poker face.

Listen, I love the Knicks so if they don’t get LBJ it is not like I’m going to be happy because I get to say I told you so. I’ve suffered for too long as Knicks fan for that. I want to see the Knicks win the chip and sign the best FAs possible. However, I don’t think Donnie went about it the right way. I like the D’Anonti signing, still do, but trading away draft picks is not the way to rebuild.

“Let’s try to put this to rest, because the idea that the team could have just waited until 2011 and be fully out from under cap hell is terribly misleading.”

How? The facts are the facts. Donnie made these moves with 2010 in mind. He had enough room for a max FA and then traded away a ton of assets. The point is he did not have to do that if plan B was a max FA in 2011. Eddy Curry, Jeffries, Crawford, Z-Bo, Marbury, Q-Rich all those terrible misguided IT contracts would have been long gone.

The plan is still 2010. But it should not be 2010 or bust.

Donnie is going all in, but If the cards don’t fall in his favor he won’t force the hand. Why? Because he’ll get another hand to play. That’s why he is the man for the job. He’s not myopic or impetuous like Zeke or his predecessors.

No one would prefer Cleveland win a Larry O’Brien trophy and LBJ come to NYC, than Donnie Walsh. But that’s out of his hands. The choices of Dwayne Wade, Chris Bosh, etc are also out of hands. All he can do is pitch and recruit.

With CP3, Melo and Tony Paker amongst those on the 2011 free agent horizon, there’s more than enough chances to hit payday between this summer and next.

The first mistake walsh made was hiring D’antoni. Even though i hate his whole basketball philosphy this is besides the point. Why pay a big name coach big time money inorder for him to sit around for two years making bank while alienating every player he had. Herb Williams or Mark Jackson could have done just as poor a job for much cheaper. It shows that the knicks still have trouble spending money wisely. Now the arguement is oh D’Antoni brings crediability to the team and he has connections with stars. I disagree completely. The assistant coach on every team is always the favorite. Also, D’antoni’s relationships with all stars did not seem to encourage Nash, Hill, or Kidd to come to Ny so why would bigger stars do so. You mean he can convince upper level stars to come but not lower ones thats a wierd gift persuation this coach has. Second, there is no question keeping Z-bo and crawford we would have at least been competitive. Would we have had the cap flexability this year no but players want to in 2011 to come to a competive situations intstead they must come to team totally void of star of talent, or defensive intensity. Third, unlike most Knicks fans I would have been content to wait till 2011. I for one dont really like the idea of other teams stars saving our butt because we do not know how to draft correctly and we do not know how to build a team correctly. Even with all the horror of the Jordan era I still would not have wanted him on my team the thought of another Star doing what this knicks team has failed to do takes away some of the glory for me. Why cant this team build a championship team in a normal way. By making savvy draft picks, building a solid foundation and core and then adding a star to get them over the top. No this team wants to buy a ready made superstar before any core has been put in place and tell the star come and save our mismanaging butts. This is why I believe the Nets are actually closer to being a legit contender or at least a management team that can be respected because they have solid foundation and all they need is another star to get them over the top. They have one of the best Centers in the league, they have a solid all star calliber PG with an opportunity for John Wall. Think what the Knicks would be if they would have selected Lopez and Jennings. But that would be way too smart. So lets all bow our heads in shame as we beg superstars to save our suffering city because the knicks management sure cannot do it. And I will not give credit to walsh if he signs a star BIG DEAL he made a no brainer move like drafting Patrick Ewing. This team only does the right thing when its a no brainer. We want to bring the next Earl the Pearl but this time there is no Frazier and there is no Willis just 20 years of of bad management and a coach who believes that defense is where you rest up to play more offense.

“There is no way inmy mind anyone (includig managment and the most optimistic of the fan base) can say that getting a minor FA or two and fiilling in with one year players this summer while waiting for a chance at Melo NEXT year is anything but an abject failure.”

“getting a minor FA or two”

bosh, amare or boozer are “minor FAs?”

IMO the plan was flawed from the beginning. It was predicated on a 57 million dollar cap which went down to 52+ at one time. Now it’s around 55+ or so. Still not 57. So right there knowing how the cap worked and the poor economy, this was a gamble.

We lost on that gamble by the cap going down that low and still being lower then thought.

The next gamble was that the team would remain competitive through this process.

We lost that gamble because we got progressively worse.

The next gamble will be that a super star, hopefully Lebron James would come here and we would have a good core already here for him with money left over for another player or so and future first round picks.

We lost that gamble because as far as I am concerned we do NOT have a core, we traded picks. IMO Walsh blew two drafts, Gallo maybe and Jordan Hill definitely because he was traded and/or maybe will be a bust it doesn’t matter he’s gone and we got back NOTHING, we lost out on Jennings and the excuse was so stupid I won’t even repeat it.

As for Lerbron or any other super star coming here I doubt it. The reason is because there are only 2 super stars available in free agency in 2010 and that’s Lebron and Wade. I just don’t see them coming here because this team does not have a core.

We have seen a glimpse into the future with Camby signing with his old team. Nobody is giving anybody a home town discount, that’s BS. Nobody is coming to New York with an owner like Dolan and being under a media microscope IMO it scares some of these guys off.

Also cap space of 35 million is not enough to fill out this roster with 2 lesser all star quality players and some solid veteran backups. Again we do not have a core of players and do not have ANY big men to develop, where’s the beef, no young 7 footers to give some size and defensive presence in the middle/paint.

Next I would add that at the time D’assholi came here he was regarded as a top notch player’s coach. Again IMO I feel that he is no longer viewed that way. All his foibles and idiosyncrasies came out under the New York media microscope mainly because of the lack of talent and how he responded to it. He alienated so many players and made himself look like a buffoon on many occasions. His complete lack of emphasis on defense became apparent as was his questionable tactics and strategy during the game.

So again gambling on this so called players coach has probably backfired. His resistance to change and this 7SOL philosophy that has not been proven to win championships as did Phil Jackson’s triangle offense. Of course it helps having the players Jackson had, but they do/did play defense for Jackson, something D’assholi players do NOT. I am pretty sure if a player like LeBron comes here he will want a coach of his choice, we all know that’s the way it works pretty much in the NBA. The NBA is a players sport, the NFL is a coaches sport.

So far the gamble of the Walsh plan has not paid off. It has not reached fruition yet so it cannot be judged fully on whether it has succeeded or not. So far it has not been successful at all on any level.

As a person who has followed sports for over 40 years I have never seen a plan like this. Anything even close to it in any sport has failed miserably, just ask Daniel Snyder of the NFL’s Washington Redskins.

The point is he did not have to do that if plan B was a max FA in 2011. Eddy Curry, Jeffries, Crawford, Z-Bo, Marbury, Q-Rich all those terrible misguided IT contracts would have been long gone

but not in 2010, which was my point of the whole post….could i ask that you start pull quoting the point of the posts?

BDB-

Are you convinced the knicks can’t win a championship without brandon Jennings?

TD

Exactly…….perfect!!!!!

I agree 100%.

It’s not about Jennings it’s about the total mismanagement of the team from a very basic standpoint. On every level, cap management, the draft and trades, Walsh has come out on the losing end.

I think JaymanJD said it even better and brought up even better points then I did.

I must add to that how would this team look with this lineup?

Jennings
Crawford
Chandler
ZBO/DLee
Lopez

You cannot tell me that a lineup like that would NOT be at least competitive with a good coach and a good bench.

“As a person who has followed sports for over 40 years I have never seen a plan like this. Anything even close to it in any sport has failed miserably, just ask Daniel Snyder of the NFL’s Washington Redskins.”

The plan the Knicks have been using for almost 40 years hasn’t completely worked either.

You either Build a Championship team by getting a big FA or two or by getting one of the first 3 picks in the Draft.
And as getting a major FA is no given, In NY’s case it was the better bet than landing a top 3 pick and hoping there were a few franchise players in it.

The plan we could have had was keeping crawford and Randolph, maybe sneeking into an 8th seed, and then what? That plan wasn’t getting us a top 3 pick. So then we stay where we compete for the 7th and 8th seeds every year.

Bosh is a max player who I’ll take as not a failure

Amare I dont want at the max though he’ll get it from someone

Boozer I want no part of.

Competitive? Absolutely. Championship caliber? Absolutely not. Playing in the NBA is about winning championships and the best chance to put together a championship roster was by clearing Zbo and Crawford and taking our chances with the big guys.

I’m not saying we are going to get one of them, but it was worth the risk.

It would have been nice to win some more games the last two years but at the end of the day whats the point if you have a franchise that is stuck between the 5th and 8 seeds?

So signing one of those guys with a few other pieces (on 1-year) and making sure to have a run at Melo is a failure?

How is that exactly?

And by the way boozer is killing it right now.

Killing it. playing harder than anyone in the league.

Better yet. Realistically, no lebron or wade. What are you doing if you’re walsh.

100%

i guess he was really happy with the 2004 edition that got torched by the nets.

hey, they made the playoffs, right?

come on guys. this is bigger than 7th or 8th seed. It’s a chance at a franchise player over the next 2 years. Obviously we all want it to be this year..so does the franchise.

OPTIONS AND BEING FLEXIBLE.

D Will is killing it.. Boozer is on the other end… though he is playing well I suspect it has something to do with needing a new contract in 60 days

Its a failure because he could have done that and not given up two first round picks and swapped another.

If Im walsh and no wade or Lebron>?

I work on a sign and trade for CP3 or Melo… If it doesnt work I admit failure and regroup.

Think what the Knicks would be if they would have selected Lopez and Jennings.

they’d be fighting for an 8th seed and fans would be killing lopez every night for not being Ewing.

Plenty would be getting after Jennings too.

…for not being Mark Jackson

But why trade for melo when you can wait a year?

Not a bad thought tho. I’d probably assume Kenyon martin’s contract for one year.

So you’re saying it’s a failure bc they should have kept hill and jeffries.

i disagree. You have to at least have the conversation then you can fall back on 1 high priced player.

that was first. In order to have that chat, you needed more space.

you can “have the chat” with a minimum of 17 mil in space..thats plain and simple.. arguably if Lebron wants to come here the JJ contract as an expiring is a very valuable commodity packaged with Curry’s expiring AND the picks we would still have..

If they move that much to have space one year earlier and it doesnt produce the anticipated results how is it anything but a failure?

admitting failure doesnt mean anything but we admit failture and move on..

Why cant we just agree that not getting a max game changer THIS year is a failure of the plan?

Which is why the worst thing they can do is shell out “max dollars” this summer for guys who are not “max players”. The objective, as I believe it to be, is to acquire a legitimate “franchise player”. If they can’t get that this summer, I have no problem waiting awhile longer if indeed they have a legitimate chance of acquiring such a player within the next year. I would not consider such a scenario to automatically be a “failure”-if anything, it would show that management is sticking with a plan. The Knicks made the trades they did because they are trying to accomplish their goals this summer-plus it seems the only shot they have of signing Lebron James is by being able to immediately pair him with another superstar caliber player. If this doesn’t work out, however, it makes no sense to forfeit the opportunity to potentially acquire such a player later by overspending this summer for players like Joe Johnson.

I am in awe of those who still lament the trades of Craw and ZBO. Have you guys forgotten how frustrating it was to watch them come up short all the time? To say we should have kept them to have a slightly better season and in turn sacrifice a shot at 2 stars in 2010 is crazy. It will be absolutely instrumental to be able to say to LeBron, “if you sign with us we have another 15mill, what do you want us to do with it?” Will it be enough? Who knows.. But I for one believe that 2010 is a special occasion that calls for special (and risky) moves. And this doesn’t weigh in on some of the mistakes that Walsh did make and you guys have been pointing them out. However, opening up cap space and putting us in a position to bid was the only way to go about 2010 IMO.

Being that K4L’s comment was posted in response to my rant, I just wanted to clarify a few things.

I never meant to give off the vibe that this was about 2011. But saying that we would have flexibility just by letting everyones contract expire in 2011 is not exactly correct…Carmelo probably would not want to come to an empty roster in NY.

By getting ready in 2010, we might be able to put a really solid team in place, and in Godfather terms make Carmelo an offer he can’t refuse.

But that wasn’t really what my rant was about anyway. It was about how there seems to be this ridiculous notion on TKB that this summer is all about Lebron, and if we don’t get him then everything we did was a failure under DW. This notion includes many people saying every free agent not named Lebron or Wade is completely overrated and doesn’t deserve the max, and thus getting them would constitute a failure.

I just was trying to remind people how utterly awful our roster was before DW took it over. People seem to keep forgetting that we couldn’t win 30 games and we had the highest team salary in the NBA.

Rebuilding such an amazingly awful roster simply does not normally happen in 2 freaking years. If it does, then great for DW. But if he puts a decent roster in place with maybe 1 max fa and some supplemental role players on 1 year contracts and then is able to get Carmelo next year, someone needs to explain to me how that is a failure? Especially considering that we will be good enough to have those draft picks given up be in at least the early 20′s, which aren’t that important to begin with considering many good teams sell those draft picks and we could just buy them back anyway.

That is all I was saying. So yes, DW needs to seriously improve the roster this summer. But to make it out like it is all about this summer is just setting DW up for failure because people already want him to fail anyway.

whre is it written that the ONLY chance of Lebron coming is if he is paired with another superstar?

i dont get why you Donnie evangelists insist on putting the word in quotes.. a failure is a failure.. its not a “failure”..

it is what it is..

No one is for overspending.. Just calling a spade a spade… and a failure a failure..

Let’s not get into trying to manage expectations with less than 60 days to go..

Donnie put his balls on the line.. I respect that.. and if he fails Im sure he will admit it.. why cant his supporters?

A Lopez/Jennings duo (I wish – oh how I wish we had drafted better – just wow that would have been amazing) would have received the same sort of pass the last two years that Mike D and this group received with Gallinari and company. It still would have been wait until summer 2010 – and in the process we would have been “realistically” competing for a playoff spot. My goodness – it is almost as if you are not objective about this stuff when someone criticizes the choices Donnie and his draft experts have made. The man has made some mistakes in the draft – notably not taking Brandon Jennings – as another poster said – you acknowledge and move on.

Here is what I do not get – yes Donnie needed to make this trades to be in the 2010 conversation on every FA – BUT – if he does not deliver – yes – he needs to called out on it and held responsible for not having a successful “conversation” with Bron or D-Wade. He has the head title – he is a grown man – if he does not have a successful conversation with Bron and D-Wade – he needs to take the heat for it. You do not get praise for having conversations or setting up the opportunity to have conversations (that’s for GMs who manage the Clippers) in NY – you have to nail the conversation and bring it home.

I’m far from a “Donnie Evangelist”, Biggie. Nobody on this site dislikes D’Antoni more than I do (with the possible exception of “X-Man”). That being said, it has been constantantly stated by members of both the local and national media that James will not come to the Knicks unless you have another superstar to pair him with. If that is true, I can understand why the Kncks made the trade with Houston. They are doing everything within their power to enhance what they perceive to be a legitimate shot at probably the best player in the game. Why is that so difficult to understand? If it doesn’t work out, it seems ridiculous (at least to to me) to say that they have automatically “failed”, especially if they sign somebody of consequence this year, and then wind up with a player like Anthony next year. I am as tired as waiting for this team to be successful as anybody, but if the Knicks should land a superstar caliber player within another year, I can’t say they’ve failed just because things didn’t work out this summer the way everybody would have liked. My concern, again, is the team overspending this summer for “fraud” superstars, thereby preventing them from eventually acquiring one who is genuine.

I addressed that. In 2010 they still had enough cap space to sign a max FA without trading the picks and Hill.

If LBJ and Wade do not sign and we target Melo in 2011, it was not a good move to give up all those pieces. I personally would not have done it for a “shot” at a second max free agent. You build through the draft and sign free agents to supplement that.

Those trades were detrimental because they also hinder us from doing a sign and trade. Using a baseball analogy our farm system is now barren. That is why I disagree with Biggie that a Paul or Melo trade is realistic. All the past trades for superstars involved first round picks.

If we sign Bosh and Joe Johnson and have no first round picks to build around them that is trouble for the forseeable future. That is why I thought the Hill trade was misguided. Unless we sign LBJ or Wade we will be signing lesser max free agents with no draft picks to build around those guys.

Typically 2nd round picks are role players and/or projects. 10-15 min players. They way we have set ourselves up, we are going to need those picks to contribute in a major way next year. In 2011, we have the worst of the Houston/Knicks swap and it will likely not be in the lottery. 2012, no pick. Without LBJ or Wade, this is an almost impossible undertaking, and by that I mean winning a championship . . .which I thought was the point of all of this.

I, for one, have no issues with DW’s plays so far. We weren’t going to do diddly with the players we had. Layden and Thomas trashed this team. Hindsight is 20-20 with our draft picks. I like Gallo and think he can be party of a great team as a third option who compliments two strong players. If we need to wait until 2011 for our dream team – no problem. We just need to be competitive next year. I’m not counting on LBJ coming here this summer, but I’m glad DW has given us a real chance to land him. I’m more optimistic about acquiring Okafor and Collison or CP3 in a trade and signing one of the second tier FAs for a reasonable contract.

Questions I have that I would love to hear from people about:

Would you tender offers to the following FAs and for how much:
Shaun Livingston
Kelenna Azibuike
Udonis Haslem
Etan Thomas
Kyle Korver
Amir Johnson
Travis Outlaw
Luke Ridnour
Steve Blake
Drew Gooden
Earl Watson
JJ Redick
Randy Foye
Adam Morrison
Zydrunas Ilgasukas
Janner Pargo
Jason Kapono
Anthony Morrow
Hakim Warrick
Theo Ratliff
Tyrus Thomas

I’m thinking about complimentary players we could sign if we were to get one premier FA (LBJ, Bosh, Amare, JJ, Boozer, Gay)

If were weren’t able to get CP3 or Collision from NO, then I would want to get some of these guys at these salaries: Livingston and Azibuike on the cheap. Say $4.5 million for each. I’d also be interested in Pargo for 2mil, and Warrick for $3 mil. Korver at 5 mil, Ridnour at 5 mil

Walsh said he wanted to clear the decks and have maximum flexibility for July 2010. He succeeded. That is success. Now, I think some are saying that if he does not sign Lebron and/or Dwyane he failed. Doesn’t that fail suggest that you thought he had Lebron and/or Dwayne somehow secretly committed to the Knicks when he cleared the decks. Obviously he could have keep the team in tack and allowed all contracts to simply expire by 2011. Then we had no chance at Lebron /Dwayne in July 2010. I guess some of the fans would have preferred that plan?? If Lebron and Dwayne do not sign with the Knicks, Walsh still succeeded in his promise to create max flexibility in 2010. Just like Miami and New Jersey. New York, Miami and New Jersey each want to believe that Lebron will be theirs. I guess there is going to be a lot of Fails.

i was against this plan fom the very beggining “and not one fan argued,at least to me” i didnt think then,and i still dont think that its fair to any fans in any sport to throw away 2 good seasons of basketball for a future plan.I said back then that if you are purposely going to lose a season ,that you shoyld at least lower your tix prices.its not fair that the garden charge full priceto watch a team that nobody has tried to improve.And now,you are telling us that we have to “LOSE” for another year..! Tommy,the more you post,the more i think you are one of DOLANS underlings.Never a bad word against Walsh or D’antoni,no matter what.Walsh could blow our entire cap on a trade with MIAMI for Beasley,and you would find reasons on why it was the right thing to do

has anything changed yet?

I don’t understand what exactly Donnie has done for us to make him above criticism. He has been preaching about the summer of 2010 since he came here, so he absolutely deserves to be judged on what he accomplishes this summer. He traded away some valuable assets in order to create more cap space. If he doesn’t end up using the it then the plan IS a failure. Does that mean I want us to overpay for Boozer and Gay? No. Does it mean that Walsh failed to execute the 2010 plan and that Knicks fans have a right to be angry with him? Absolutely.

Maybe some fans would be on Lopez. I thought he was a big stiff who couldn’t play under D’Antoni. Jennings I disagree, the fans would love him.

But should a GM really being making moves based on fan reaction? There were fans a lot of fans in Orlando who wanted Okafur over Howard. Laker fans couldn’t believe they were trading Divac for an unknown in Kobe Bryant. They get paid the big bucks to make the tough decisions, but anyway you slice it everybody knew the Knicks needed a Center/shot blocking presence and a pure PG. Not drafting either is an absolute failure that, to me, cannot be defended.

i wasnt singling you out as a Donnie evangelist.. sorry for that..

i understood the reasons for the trade as well.. and ultimately capitulated and said just do it..

I have no problem with Donnie’s effort or his plan.. But if the plan doesnt work out I call that a failure.. no quotes or anything..

I dont like a lot of the things Donnie has done to date (draft..signings) .. But the jury is ultimately still out.. Until after this July plays out…

Doesnt mean we cant regroup and still get a star next year.. It just means that the plan failed and we move onto a new plan. Period

100%

No one, or at least I, am not saying we should have kept ZBO and Crawford for their playing abilitiy. I am saying it was stupid to trade away draft picks for cap space.

I do not think we could have won a championship with them. But, Ithink you have to keep the team competitive to sign a free agent and show that you have a promising future. That means drafting well and accumalting draft picks. We have not done either.

No Gm’s shouldn’t draft based on fans. That’s why he drafted Gallinari. Did you hear the boos when they drafted him? If he wanted to please fans he would have selected Gordon i’m sure everyone would have loved because we were all familiar with him.

take the next step.. for arguments sake

Now we have Zbo and Craw as expiring deals in 2011 .. could they bring back something for their 27 mil in bird rights?

then you have a “conversation” with whomever for whomever..

not saying anything but there were other paths besides 2010…

I hated sucking for 2 years.. i put that on the coach… for ostracizing marbury and his 21 mil expiring deal when that could have been an asset.. and for the million other things that we’ve all detailed n the past.

To everyone saying you need a top 3 pick to win a championship that is simply not true. You can aquire great pieces in picks 1-10 AND THEN sign free agents to supplement that foundation.

Detroits Top 3 pick Darko Milic had no impact on their championshp but guys they drafted and traded for sure did.

Lakers did not have a top 3 pick of theirs who contributed to a chip, but Kobe Bryant who was not a top 3 pick (draft day trade) sure contributed to a lot of championships.

Who was Miami’s top 3 pick? Wade certainely was not and they traded for Shaq.

If you look at one of the most successful teams the last decade, Dallas has not had a top three pick (Dirk draft day trade certainely was not).

You don’t have to win the lottery to win a chip. You just have to scout and draft well.

Sorry Tommy but you underestimate New York fans. It’s not the fans that’s the problem, it’s the perception of them brought on by people like YOU!!!!!! And other media types who blame everything on the fans.

Hey man, been a fan since the mid 1960′s, so you can’t BS an old Brooklyn boy from East New York, New Lots Ave. and so on.

It’s total BS and you went right into that mode which is done when all else fails, blame the people least responsible. I lost a lot of respect for you over the past few months and do not consider you a true objective reporter. It’s OK to sit on the fence so that you retain access to Knick management but you have become a company man IMO.

Some of your reasoning is totally political and lacks credibility, Therefore you have reached a point were you also lack credibility as an objective blogger.

I understand why and it’s your way of getting inside, go for it, it’s your career and nobody can say anything in that regard. A man must support his family and seek out the best way to do it. If this is your way then by all means you have the right to do so and I wish you all the luck in the world in whatever your goals are.

But to be thought as an objective blogger who represents the fans point of view, no way, you are a company man.

You know what the beauty of America is? It’s that you are not forced to buy Knicks tickets. If they are too much, don’t buy them. Simple as that. Don’t go.

By the way The Garden was rockin at the end of the year.

100% of nothing but wishful thinking.

“you can “have the chat” with a minimum of 17 mil in space..thats plain and simple.. arguably if Lebron wants to come here the JJ contract as an expiring is a very valuable commodity packaged with Curry’s expiring AND the picks we would still have..

Why cant we just agree that not getting a max game changer THIS year is a failure of the plan?”

So nice it needed to be posted twice.

Co-sign, +100 and Ditto.

I still don’t think the Gallo signing made much sense and I was at that draft, so yeah I heard the booing. I was not happy that night since I wanted them to draft Bayless.

I thought Gallo played the same position as Lee, Chandler and LBJ (3 or 4) so, at the time, I didn’t understand the point of drafting yet another forward (which we inexplicably did the following year with Hill). Sure the general rule is take the BPA, but seriously, how many forwards can one team draft. What are we .. .the Hawks.

But to the point of the post, I’m not saying Walsh made popular picks, I’m saying we should not have shyed away from Jennings or Lopez because those picks may have been unpopular. I thought that was the point of what Tommy was saying.

100%

You build through the draft and you do not need a lottery pick you need to draft the right players. Something we have not done for years and years.

Once you have a core then you add on free agents and make a few trades to fine tune the team’s personnel.

That’s the way any winning team has been put together for as long as I can think of, since free agency in sports. Before FA, it was drafting and trades alone. So the draft picks were more important and so was finding players from other sources like UDFAs.

I’m more of a football guy and you can go back 50 years and the plan is the same on how to build a championship team. The core comes from the draft, period.

That is a cop out.

So as a die hard life long Knick fan as opposed to trying to hold the team accounatble we should “just not go”. If this was OKL or New Orleans where corpoations wouldn’t buy those tickets maybe that type of boycott would be effective. But MSG is in the heart of NYC, right near time square. People are always going to go.

Dolan and the Knicks managment need to be held accountable through effective fan protest. Boo, throw your Knick jerseys on the floor, or sit home. But Bob is absolutely correct, the ticket prices are too high and the average fan is suffering through a terribly mismanaged product.

Ok wise guy. Wade was the 5th pick behind Bosh, Melo, and Lebron. You aren’t getting a class like that anytime soon.

Kobe was a draft day trade to the lakers and wasn’t a top 5 pick but that was also when High schoolers could go Pro. Had he gone to college for a year, he would have most definitely been a top pick.

Want a good fact?

Every Championship team since 1980(at least) has had at least one top 5 pick play a key role( top 2 player) in winning the title

Walsh is above criticism with regard to getting maximum cap space. It is invaluable. Look at the list of available players put together by Toby Knight above. There are about 85 of those unrestricted players available. There is a bout 160 million in cap space available. If 5 stars each gets 15 million that eats up 75 million. Now you have 80 unrestricted players chasing 85 million in cap space. Not a bad place to be if you are the Knicks with 34 million. I know what I have just stated is rather simplistic and teams can sign their own and teams can go over the cap. The point is the Knicks have gotten so used to overpaying players, we seem to think it is the only way to do it. Thinks seem to be changing at MSG.

Completely true, but the best case scenario is obviously acquiring James. I didn’t love the Houston trade at the time it was made either, but combined with everything else that has been done, the Knicks are in as good a position to make a run at the guy as is possible.

Couldn’t agree more with you about Marbury. His contract last year was a definite asset. It’s funny how that’s never talked about, especially when you see what the Rockets were able to acquire for McGrady
when placed in a similar situation. D’Antoni completely screwed that one up-what else is new?

I hope you don’t own a business

OUCH!!!

“Want a good fact?

Every Championship team since 1980(at least) has had at least one top 5 pick play a key role( top 2 player) in winning the title”

Uh huh. Since Walsh has been here he has had the #6 and #8 pick and who knows where we would have drafted in 2011, and 2012. The Knicks have also had tons of lottery picks on their team (Penny Hardaway, Steve Francis, Steph, Crawford, Curry) But that is not the point. I’m saying you build through the draft. TKB must be the only forum which disagrees with this concept. It is mind boggling.

Your historical fact actually proves my point. Lakers drafted well and then TRADED for a top 3 pick (Shaq) who put them over the top. Miami drafed Wade and did the same thing. I noticed that you purposely left out Darko Milic in discussing Wade as a top 5 pick. Again that is not properly scouting.

You want a real history lesson. How about this one, the Knicks are looking to other teams stars to make up for their mistakes. Orlando tried that and when Tim Duncan spurned them they spent the money and Hill and McGrady and that worked out terribly. So they . . .built through the draft. They did not trade their picks and drafted Howard and Jameer Nelson and then made some great trades and are now aguably the best team in the east.

The Bulls tried to use their cap space but no free agent would take it because they sucked. So they overpaid for Ben Wallace and low and behold, they sucked. So they, kept their picks and accumulated more (from the Knicks) built through the draft. They drafted Rose, Tyrus Thomas (since traded) and Noah and will now have cap space to sign someone to supplement their foundation.

So, I was fine with trying to get a max FA. But you don’t do it at the expense of your draft picks because, if it doesn’t work out, you are dooming your franchise for the foreseeable future.

I had no problem with any of Walsh’s moves until he made the last trade. Tommy, I understand the points that you made, but that last trade was an “all in” move that depleted our assets and can definitely set this franchise further back if it doesn’t work out. It removed any safety net that we had.

I hope that I am wrong, bit I think that Lebron is staying in Cleveland. If that is the case, then the best option might be to sign one substantial free agent and wait for 2011. If that is how it plays out, then the last trade hurts us. It removed a number of chips that we had and could have used in the future in trades or for future growth. I am not in the group that thought that Jordan Hill was a bust. Tommy, I read your columns where you said that big men need more time to develop. You have said that the only way that you could see the Knicks bringing back David Lee is if he had a long, athletic big man next to him. Remind you of anyone? I blame D’Antoni for not giving Jordan Hill more court time before the trade deadline in order to see what exactly they had. I think that he is going to develop into a very good NBA big man. We presently don’t have any big men on the roster (I’m excluding Eddie Curry on purpose). At worst, the return value that we could have received for him would probably have been substantially more in the future once he has developed further.

If we don’t get LeBron, extending the plan into 2011 probably makes a lot of sense. If we had not made that trade, and we are not that good this year, we would have had a relatively high draft pick to solidify our roster (or use in a trade for a big player) & Jeffries expiring contract would have been an asset in its own right, so we wouldn’t have had to give away the farm just to get rid of him.

Again, I hope that I am wrong and we get the free agents that we need. I am just afraid that if we don’t, it could end up being a long road back!

Ok. I agree with what your saying. You’re right. You shouldn’t draft based on fans.

I thought you were saying thats what he did by not drafting jennings and lopez.

The Knicks are profitable. Kudos to Dolan . .. happy.

Screw the little guy.

“Think what the Knicks would be if they would have selected Lopez and Jennings.

they’d be fighting for an 8th seed and fans would be killing lopez every night for not being Ewing.

Plenty would be getting after Jennings too.”

AND they’d have cap space to add a game changer/star from the “best free agent class of all time”.

That’s key.

Yeah that was harsh, he should be expecting an email in 5 ,4 3 , . . .

I also don’t think that is entirely fair. Tommy believes in Walsh and D’Antoni, but I’ve seen him be critical of the brass. I don’t think his obvious bias for them is motivated by anything but orange and blue loyalty but I’ve never met him (Tommy) and I guess you never know what a person’s motivation is but, again, its a blog. I don’t think it is that deep.

Long road….you got that right, I don’t expect anything happening with this team until 2014. That’s after D’ass and Walsh are both gone and Dolan is begging Stern for help to find a GM and coach or even do something to get him a marque player since they had no draft picks for a few years and missed out on a bunch of star players.

Further, TD hasn’t responded to the point. The Hill trade freed up space for a second max player in 2010. The space was already there for 2011. So if it’s not used this year then the Hill trade was a mistake – a terrible, Isaiah level squandering of our best assets (the picks, not Hill, IMO).

But Walsh isn’t stupid. He really must have a concept which I expect will become clear once the playoffs are over. It’s just that Tommy hasn’t adequately argued what that plan might be.

In the end the Knicks should end up with three excellent players in addition to those already on the roster (Gallo, Chandler, Douglas).

Get your Facts right.

The Lakers signed Shaq as a FREE AGENT

And he went to LA because of the Market and opportunities.

Plus one. Well stated.

Amen, BigDaddybluesman!!

Tommy Dee
The Point Guard of Knicks Propoganda

arguably if Lebron wants to come here the JJ contract as an expiring is a very valuable commodity packaged with Curry’s expiring AND the picks we would still have..

big argument actually and one that can’t just be dismissed (right HaS?) especially with the new CBA you don’t know how valuable that commodity is at all.

With that said, I agree that Lebron understands the idea moving forward so we’ll see.

it would be disappointing, but certainly not a “fail”

You make it sound like waiting and starting fresh in 2011 is the idea.

it’s not. add pieces this year, add a star over the next summer or two.

then be top 4 in the east.

at the end of the day, if the Knicks get home court advantage in the playoffs in year 4 it’s a major, major win.

In year 3 it’s a miracle.

Don’t lose site of where this thing was in 2008.

by year 4 do you mean 4 years from NOW?

thats unclear by your “next summer or two” comment..

in my mind year one and two is in the books..

year 3 is 2010/11.. we SHOULD be a 5 or 6 seed

home court in round one means a top 4 seed.. that needs to happen in 2011/11 n my mind

i dont think we are a 5/6 seed if we add Boozer or Amare and a bunch of one year guys… we’ve seen what these “one year guys” are up to.

Typically 2nd round picks are role players and/or projects. 10-15 min players. They way we have set ourselves up, we are going to need those picks to contribute in a major way next year.

What round was Mo williams drafted? Varejão? ginobili? matt Barnes 27 mpg for orlando…Scola? Korver…ariza last year
Cj Miles?

shall i continue? Monta ellis?

Paul millsap?

So, no, typically 2nd rounders with STAR PLAYERS turn out to be REALLY GOOD ROLE PLAYERS or better.

TYPICALLY second round players dont make it out of their first training camp and end up in Eurrope or the D LEgue..

the ones you mention are the exceptions..

agreed that we have to make extra ordinary waves in teh 2nd round this year..

Donnie can t F up another draft.

Nah. I’m a fan BDB. Dont ever get that twisted.

and i’ve been around the block too. NY fans always have something to complain about.

At no point have I ever, EVER blamed everything on fans. In fact, I’m one of the few who actually listen and care.

TD

and the “Coach” has to actually play the rookies.. not let them sit on the bench until 25 games to go.

Realist you always make it about me so you kind of prove my point.

Don’t worry about me man. Worry about the Knicks, like I do.

TD– no shots.. but in one post you acknowledge the Risks associated with the uncertainty of 2011 and in otehr posts you say dont worry.. be happy.. if we dont score in 2010 2011 is right around the corner with Melo waiting int he wings..

My motivation is to serve the readers of this blog all of whom have the right to have an opinion. Just because they don’t comment doesn’t me everyone agrees with everyone.

It’s all good baby.

Cmon Tommy read my whole post . . .

“They way we have set ourselves up, we are going to need those picks to contribute in a major way next year.”

I’m not saying that you can’t find players in the second round. I’m saying it takes them a few years (being sent to Europe or sitting on the bench) before they actually make contributions to their teams. Do you think our free agents want to wait that many years for impact players on their team? Then why leave their current situations?

Typically if guys are that good AND ready to play now . .. they go in the 1st round. We don’t have the luxury to wait on these guys.

I agree 1000%. The first mistake, of many, was D’Antoni. That led to then next mistake of Galinari instead of Lopez, to pacify D’antoni beacuse he played with his father. The next was trading Z-bo and Crawford way too soon. The next was drafting Hill.

Now, Walsh is a desperate man. All signs are pointing to no big FA coming. The big tado about everybody wanting to play for MD is all bull. Like Jayman said, if that was the case, why didn’t Kidd and Hill take the bait? The truth is now MD has gotten a reputation for alienating players, choosing favorites, being stubborn and not caring a damn about defense.

Walsh is gonna have to show some stones and hire a defensive coach over MD objections. Either way, I predict this will be D’Antoni’s last year as coach.

Eh, I’m not a lopez guy at all. Never was. Nothing about him makes me think that he’s going to be that great. I’m fine with Gallo and Douglas.

Marbury was never an asset….ever. what were you getting for that? It would have had to be a 1 year contract. We could have had T-mAc last year…oh wait he got hurt.

What free agent to be would have match marbury’s salary.

Yes that is true, they signed Shaq a year after making the playoffs with a great young core (Eddie Jones, Van Exel, etc.) and had the pieces in place for the Diesel.

Don’t lose the forest through the trees. The point remains the same.

**matched

Crawford is a great 6th man, not a great starter. ZBO, once again surrounded by talent, missed the playoffs this year. Lopez was featured with a young former all star point guard and lost 70 games this year…lost 70 games!

I say we still miss the 8th seed with that line up.

We also still have Jeffries contract on the books this summer and no 1st round draft pick in 2010. Not very promising.

This is about elevating the team in 2 years into the TOP of the Easter Conference.

Not trying to be a 7 seed.

geez.

hill is the only pick worth worrying about. The knicks will be better next year and the 2012 pick will be in the 20s.

his expiring contract was an asset in its final year.

you cant deny that..just as McGrady’s was..

100% agree.

I guess that’s aimed at me.

I give any new regime 4 years minimum to turn things around to championship level.

You make it sound so easy Big. I’m not apologizing.

The coach is on notice for next year. But the front office gets 4 years.

ISiah did, why can’t walsh?

Why do all college coaches who take over a program get 4 or 5 year contracts?

because it’s a lot of work.

If the don’t get lebron it’s not a fail because they will have the ability to make trades and get better next year. and the year after.

YEAR 4.

Jermaine O’Neal for one

And big you as much as anyone understand good business. You know there is no “moving on to another plan”….they had to protect themselves in case plan A doesn’t work they move on in 5 seconds to the next option.

From Miami for Marbury?

No way.

The rockets took back salary in Kevin Martin for McGrady and those were the only other offers.

Knicks weren’t in a position to take back any salary past 2010.

You know that…

who were they going to get?

this isnt dont worry be happy. It’s spelling out that they have to take the risk and being flexible isn’t failure

period.

You know I want a star player….that’s what this has always been about.

“the year after” is FIVE years..

We just ahd year two.. year three is 2010/11

year 4 is 2011/12

then Donnie’s own deal runs out..in 2012..

im not saying it easy but just that decisions have been made to go down a certain path/

And teh results of those decisions can be judged after THIS summer.. not in a year.. or two .. or three..

Iif Donnie has the conversation and it comes up empty it is at least “dissapointing”.

Should he have that conversation and fail and the result is midling pickups and one year guys the Houston trade comes back to bite us in the ass..

Is that another disappointment? Surely it is.. but it is what it it.. .

Donnie is likely on the Sather plan.. as much time as he wants.. that doesnt mean we all have to get lock step in line and clap when he enters the room regardless of the RESULTS.

So top 4 seed in 2011/2012 is your barometer?

thats fine.

Assuming we get a player of consequence this summer. Otherwise, there’s no guarantee that we’re significantly better enough next year to make our 2011 pick a non issue. As we’ve said in the past, the Houston trade may have been something the Knicks had to do, but giving up those picks might come back to bite us. That’s why I worry that we’ll panic this summer if we don’t land our primary targets. Hopefully, DW is smarter than that.

You made sure you capitalized the TRADED for shaq part. Whoops. That point you tried to make(but failed) is my point. The Lakers signed Shaq because of the market and opportunities for him in LA. Sound familiar with the things we can offer to a Free Agent here in NY?

I’ll just agree to disagree. We need a superstar and I think the best way to get it is though Free Agency and you think we need to keep picks and trade for a star. Who says we can’t do both?(Trade for Bosh, sign Lebron)

year 4 of the Walsh Era was what i was referring to. Home court advantage.

I swear to God…you can’t make this stuff up.
LOL

Keep bitching and complaining.

I think Biggie has summed up the situation very nicely in this thread. I’ve been a bigtime supporter of Donnie’s efforts to clear as much cap space as possible heading into this summer. I’m of the belief that you absolutely need to put yourself in the best position you see possible to land the top player in the game, who has not even entered his prime yet. If Donnie felt that his best chance to do that was to clear enough room to bring over LeBron and any one of his buddies, then that’s what you do – which is why I was OK with the Houston trade, even though I fully acknowledge that we gave up a lot. Now, having said all that, IF Donnie cannot bring in a gamechanger/franchise player this summer, I will not be pissed at him for the Houston deal, since I agreed with it at the time. However, I will have no problem at all proclaiming the Houston trade, and in essence his plan – which ultimately put most of, if not all his eggs, in the 2010 FA basket – a failure. From that point, as Biggie said, you admit failure and come up with a new point of attack going forward. Even as a Donnie supporter, I don’t see why fellow Donnie fans would have trouble calling a spade a spade. Donnie gambled with the Houston trade, but I signed off on it even knowing the risks. However, if the gamble doesn’t pay off this summer, it was a failure.

But Walsh isn’t stupid. He really must have a concept which I expect will become clear once the playoffs are over. It’s just that Tommy hasn’t adequately argued what that plan might be.

like what? players? Who knows?…that’s speculation anyway. It’s been about Lebron. Who wouldn’t want to play with Lebron?

I’ll say this though, don’t count out trading curry during the year for a player with a not so great contract who can have a resurgence. making a trade like that separates the men from the boys.

thats not the point.. Marbury’s gigantic expiring deal was worth something

Assuming he was on his best behavior and producing at SOME LEVEL — which we can assume by the way he acted to being immediately named the reserve to Duhon

But that is water under the bridge and not Donnie’s fault.

But they all play with STAR PLAYERS. coincidence? I think not.

I did read your whole post. 2nd rounders with stars can be very successful. and those were taken from like 3 drafts.

so they got a productive player in Martin,a #1 in 2012, a swap of top picks in 2011 and a player chosen top 8 overall..

sounds like they got some value for the largest expiring deal .. Most independent people think so..

In fact, they MIGHT turn those assets into Bosh.. MIGHT.

Even a draft choice would have been something. If they had played the guy, he could have performed potentially well enough so that other teams might have had an interest. Perhaps a market could have been created among contending teams so that the Knicks could have at least gotten back a low first round pick back. It was at least worth a try.

here’s a poll..

When can we give the thumbs up/down on DOnnie’s plan..

a. when he retires
b. after this summer
c. in 2011
d. in 2012

Tommy,

With all due respect this utter NONSENSE!

The fans were on board for a plan that got rid of overpaid players with long term contracts and built towards the 2010 free agency class while also rebuilding from within with draft picks and other young talent.

We were totally on plan with the Randolph and Crawford deals and the drafts of Gallo, Douglas and even Hill even if it turns out to be a mistake. Most accepted the fact that were giving up more player than we were getting back in those trades because we were thinking LONG TERM and getting shorter contracts back.

The Jeffries/Hill deal was an entirely different matter.

We gave up a young prospect that will at least be a serviceable player and may be more than that, the 2012 pick (which will have value no matter what the team looks like then), a 2011 pick swap to a team that was way better than us last year, is also young, is getting back Yao, and that has draft picks. We also gave up Jeffries. Even though he was almost worthless as a player at 6M, he would have had an expiring contract this year that could have been easily traded for talent.

WE did all that for space in 2010 that we would have had in 2011 ANYWAY.

NO ONE SIGNED ON FOR THAT in the beginning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That means unless he uses that extra space WELL and in 2010, it was a horrible ERROR!

THERE IS NO WAY OTHER WAY TO SLICE IT and anyone suggesting otherwise comes off as Walsh ass kisser that is unwilling to examine the facts.

You can argue he had to take the risk etc…

I don’t agree because I think the probabilities of signing Wade/James were always way less than the NY media was hyping fans into believing. But that is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that if he doesn’t use it in 2010 and also use it wisely, it was a huge error PERIOD!

please dont lump walsh with sather…

On the picks, I want to add one thing.

You can’t argue about how great a pick Douglas was and how we should buy the Hawks late first rounder and simultaneously argue that out lost 2012 pick and 2011 pick swap are not worth worrying about.

They are both assets that could have used or traded and if they didn’t have value we wouldn’t be so happy about potentially buying late first rounders and early second rounders etc,. this year

I think Donnie said it was a 5 year plan.
I would take the year he was hired and add 5 to that.
Only after that time would I say he failed if we’re still no good.

but in your plan B you dont have a STAR PLAYER here..

just a bunch of one year guys and a Carlos Boozer/Rudy Gay type signing.

Some people are never happy.
Stop crying and just wait and see what happens.

“Marbury’s gigantic expiring deal was worth something

Assuming he was on his best behavior”

who are we talking about here again? lol

history has shown that you cannot count on that

without taking back a contract that would eat cap space in 2010, I’m not sure we could get anything for starbury..and we weren’t taking back that

So let me get this straight, If they don’t get lebron or wade the jeffries trade was a huge error? Or a fail?

I disagree and the reasons are there. It has nothing to do with kissing walsh’s ass. I’m not an apologist. I think like an executive. I never would have drafted Lopez or jennings.

That’s on record.

So I can’t go back and second guess Walsh for a decision I would have made.

i said all along I would have traded Hill with Jeffries or Chandler with Curry. You have to have a clean slate when rebuilding.

They are aggressive, gutsy plays that have the organization on the verge of having the best player the franchise has seen in 3 decades. And if not, they can make moves to be a top 6 or 5 seed in the east with the room to add Melo.

Jordan Hill made 3 million dollars. That’s around the vet minimum. You can get a player better for slightly higher.

The swap pick is meaningless, to me, but it’s a risk.

and the idea is to have that 2012 pick in the 20s.

it’s a risky plan and it’s ballsy, and it’s what I would have done.

that’s not ass kissing.

you’re right..

sather has a ring on each finger.

but they are both uber experienced managers who were hired by a complete bufoon to run the show with very little oversight and complete trust from ownership.

The discussion was about ticket prices.

This was not a debate about #2 vs. #7 seeds.

You can’t argue about how great a pick Douglas was and how we should buy the Hawks late first rounder and simultaneously argue that out lost 2012 pick and 2011 pick swap are not worth worrying about

I never said not to worry about them. i said they were a risk. but if they move into the draft this year that gives them a pick they didn’t have. and if all works out the rockets won’t want to swap.

Biggie,

Giving up all we gave up for that extra space, if we don’t use that extra space in 2010 and use it wisely the plan was a failure. That much can’t be more obvious.

Anyone that doesn’t understand that should definitely not be making trade decisions anywhere, has an agenda for backing Walsh no matter what happens, or is a delusional Knicks fan that is allowing emotion to interfere with logical value oriented thought.

It’s on Walsh now to deliver or suffer the wrath of “thinking” Knicks fans over that last deal.

“this isnt dont worry be happy. It’s spelling out that they have to take the risk and being flexible isn’t failure
period.”

If they strike out this summer with the major FA’s and Melo and Paul fall through the Knicks still have their “flexibility” and a draft pick in 2013, yea that wouldn’t be a failure.

The Houston trade can be judged after this summer, but i think a judgement on Donnie’s overall encompass a longer timeline. 2012 sounds fair to me. Rebuilds usually take longer than two years. It doesn’t matter how he does it (free agent v draft), as long as it works.

no.

If they dont get a game changing super star this summer the plan to clear cap space for July 2010 was a failure. Period.

So if the Lakers had won 29 games the year before and had four players under contract, one of whom is useless, you think Shaq would have still gone there?

Shaq wanted to make his movies, was pissed off about the Penny trade (who he couldn’t stand) and wanted to go to Hollywood.

“Who says we can’t do both?(Trade for Bosh, sign Lebron)”

Again, we have no assets to make a trade. That is why I would have preffered to keep the draft picks and Hill.

Nice insight . . .

We didn’t give up our 2011 pick. We swapped. And looking at the West, Houston has a decent shot to be a lottery team, just like they were this year.

I’m sure the 2011 pick won’t bite us and even more sure the 2012 pick won’t bite us. If the 2012 pick bites us, we have bigger problems than losing a pick.

Are we really rebuilding though?

Could the Mav’s throw a wrench in our effort to sign Bosh? (assuming we want to actually sign Bosh)

Mavericks coach Rick Carlisle doesn’t think that anyone should count the team out when it comes to signing a big-name free agent this summer.

“Mark [Cuban] and Donnie [Nelson] would love to add another star to this roster to play with Dirk and Jason,” Carlisle said Saturday. “Is it possible? Yes. Is it likely? A lot of people would bet against us. But I wouldn’t advise it.

“They’re the best I’ve been around at finding opportunities. And they’ve been able to do things in a very expeditious manner.”

Raptors forward Chris Bosh, a native of Dallas, is just one of the free agents heading for the market.

“Great city, great franchise, great ownership,” Carlisle added. “There’s always going to be a high quality team here. Dirk and Jason Kidd being here is going to enhance the situation tremendously, because those are two guys that great players are going to want to play with, and there probably are a surprising number of NBA players that view Dallas as a great city to live in.

“No state tax is huge because high-income free-agent types can save tons of money.”

Read more: http://realgm.com/src_wiretap_archives/66313/20100502/carlisle_mavs_will_be_in_play_for_free_agents/#ixzz0mnepNGYs

If the last $9.5 million in cap space in not used effectively, the trade was a mistake imo. But keep in mind, just because donnie made a poor trade (if that even becomes the case) doesn’t mean his tenure as the knicks GM was a failure. No one expects absolute perfection from the guy, but his net effect to the team over the next couple of seasons will define his legacy with the knicks.

At least in this one game, Joe Johnson is not looking like a superstar.

Would like this guy at 14 million, but someone is going to give him a Max contract.

“Jordan Hill made 3 million dollars. That’s around the vet minimum. You can get a player better for slightly higher.”

This sure is a 100% turnaround from your glowing posts about Hill all year before the trade. Now we can get a better player for the veterans minimum?

This is what I am saying.

Anything that doesn’t land two legitimate max contract players or one max contract and two very good players in 2010 makes “the last trade a very bad move”.

We will still be in a good position. We can still recover because we still have a lot of space etc…

Buy anything that spills into 2011 makes that last trade bad.

If my mother was in charge of the Knicks she could have waited until 2011 and Jefftries, Crawford, and Zach would have come off the books and we’d still have Hill and the picks. That’s a pretty good position too and my mother is not even a Knicks fan or getting paid millions.

This dispute is all about the last trade.

When evaluating that last trade, how things turn out long term is irrelevant except for what that trade yields in 2010. If that extra space yields nothing in 2010, it was a bad trade because we would have had the space in 2011 anyway and didn’t have to give up anything.

Whether you agree or not with the way Donnie is going about it, I don’t see how you can say we aren’t rebuilding. We have gutted the entire team and have 4 players under contract heading into 2010-11. What would you call that besides “rebuilding?”

as our 1A, or worst case scenario our #1, I’d rather have gay at $13 than JJ at the max. gay is younger and still has upside, JJ has no more upside imo

I should add the flip side.

If he does manage to land 2 max FAs or one max FA and 2 very good players, then that extra space did come in handy in 2010 and we’ll be good one year sooner and perhaps even land a unique talent in 2010.

If he does that he’ll be a hero.

Yup. Donnie basically shifted his plan’s focus from “clearing cap space for 2010 while maintaining flexibility afterwards” to “clearing as much cap space as possible for the summer of 2010, no matter the costs” with the Houston trade. So, that particular trade becomes a failure if you don’t bring in at LEAST a superstar THIS SUMMER.

this is a big point

if the swap was this year, we would be trading the #9 for the #14.

The knicks have a nice chance to be much improved next year. Houston, while it is possible could get better, will more then likely be close to the same team they had this season.

The Rockets are getting Yao Ming back..

How could they not improve?

i actually think that is fair.

I think the problem is that most of the people who dont consider it to be a failure if LBJ or Wade dont come, understand that not everything is a given.

We appreciate the effort to get us to that point, and want it to go our way… but realize that the most you can do in this situation is put your best foot forward.

If Donnie strikes out on LBJ, Wade or Bosh… then he should be judged on his plan B. If he is able to grab a couple good young players, who fit the system well, maybe a 1A kind of guy like JJ or Lee (for a good deal) along with buying a draft pick and leaving himself the chance for either a trade with curry or getting Mello next year… well… I dont consider that a failure.

The best you can do is put yourself in the position to win. Generally, it takes 2 to tango and I cant say FIRE WALSH!!!! if LBJ decides to stay at home and Wade and Bosh go in different directions. It will be disappointing, and will def put Walsh on notice, but a failure is too big.

Tommy, you must be kidding if you think that you can get someone with Jordan Hill’s potential for slightly above the vet’s minimum. Look at his track record. He was alot better his second year in college than the first. By the end of the regular season, when he was given a chance to play at Houston, he was active & disruptive on defense, active on the boards & has a nice jump shot. He is long & athletic & has pretty long arms. He has the potential to grow into a very good player, which would not be the case with most players that you can get with the vet minimum!

It is a ballsy move and lets hope that it works. As I said above, we are now “all in” on this move. While we have ultimate cap flexibility, our flexibility in other regards has now been limited. We are hell bent going down this road. If it works, great. I have been a Knicks fan for 40 years, through the good times & bad, and I much prefer the good times. However, if it doesn’t work, my fear is the bad times might continue for longer than they would have if Walsh didn’t make that last trade!

donnie has been preaching about cap space and flexibility.

the media has been preaching about the summer of 2010.

we live in world with shades of grey.

not everything in life is a pass/fail thing.

I will base my judgment of Donnie on what he has done so far. When he makes moves on a consistent basis that I think are way off, then he will become a failure.

But there is no timetable.

IMO he has 2 questionable moves so far… not drafting Jennings (which alot of teams past on and is a question soaking in 20/20 hindsight) and giving up the 2012 pick in the houston trade.

BUT! getting Walker IMO makes up for the 2012 pick leaving.

SO IMO, donnie is doing just fine. Lets see what he does with this summer, and then I will judge his performance based off of that.

you people are out of your minds on LOPEZ … i tivo and watch alot of Net games … his numbers look nice.. but he is dominated on a nightly basis by elite big men … he doesnt even average double digit boards … you people are obsesses with his big games against US and David Lee
LOPEZ IS OVERRATED
in 2 season the Gallo vs. Lopez debate will be put to bed for good

donnie with all honesty
will get an F if he doesn’t land wade lbj cp3 or somewhere gets a top 5 pick.

once again any1 could of traded z-bo an craw an get under the cap so he gets no credit for that he also basically gave away his best 2 players for nothing.

he also said he will try an have a competitive team
i wonder if that falls mostly on danni boy or donnie alzy for not getting players or gettin up on danni boy’s face an demand better coaching…

i think both will be gone by 2012 summer an hopefully an better coach an g.m comes in an hopefully donnir doesn’t trade away all the knicks picks for the rest of the decade or even worse the century

lol of course, what else can you call this…Stripping the roster and adding all new players is rebuilding a team by definition. We have all watched plenty of sports in our lives, rebuilding takes 4-5 years to have a chance. The style Donnie is using is unorthadox but it is still rebuilding.

Two year rebuilds are rare. Boston basically did it overnight and won a championship, but they used old guys and already had a star player. We are going for younger players and are still looking for our star. It will take us more time.

agreed … this was all about signing a game changer… a player who makes us a championship contender on opening night every season

Unless you are privy to inside info then all any of us can do is speculate. So yes, I’d like to see you speculate. If not Lebron/Wade AND a sidekick then what’s a reasonable use of the extra cap space this offseason? If it’s the flexibility to trade for, let’s say, Paul, which might require taking back salary, and still have room the following year to sign Melo then I’m happy. Curry’s deal will allow the team to surround those guys with quality depth.

I think the Knicks will have to first deal for a star because I think D’Antoni’s a detriment to signing a top FA. Especially considering the unproven roster.

Paul, Wilson, Melo, Gallo, Okafor with Baron, Douglas, Walker and some vets in reserve would be an exciting team.

and if lopez was such an elite game changing big man, he sure didnt help his teams win total

What if Donnie is able to sign a game changer?
I’m sure people would still have something to bitch and complain about.

Lord knows Lopez isn’t a game changer.

but you don’t just “sign” a game changer. you set yourself up to have the best possible shot at it. Too many factors you don’t control. Walsh did set us up to make the signing on the monetary front, which is big. But I do see the critics point. He could have done a better job keeping picks, Hill (although I don’t car that much for him frankly) etc. I also really soured on d’Antoni as a “magnet” for superstars. But from the budget point of view, Walsh is dead on….

“He could have done a better job keeping picks, Hill (although I don’t car that much for him frankly)”

Could you be more specific please?
How could he had done a better job by keeping the 1 pick he traded away?

good point… they could.

of course, he did just miss an entire season, and played in more then 60 games just once in the past 5 years… in that 5 year span avg 47 games.

So they could very well get better. They are also be putting all those “get better” eggs into an aging center that hasnt been healthy in years and is coming back from a full year off.

negotiate harder, work on the timing, explore different scenarios. But it may have been the only way to unload JJ. I can’t be more specific as I’m not working the phones with other GM’s. But my point is exactly that he should NOT be reprimanded as I think the fist priority was to get enough cap to sign to max and he did that.

I don’t know that your reasoning is right on the draft(s), but I do agree that, had we not signed D’A as coach, the drafting process may have been much different. I think Lopez would’ve been picked, though I can’t honestly say who he would’ve picked this past year. Most likely not Hill.

+1

I agree 100%

They get Yao back, yea. But what are the chances he stays healthy?
Lakers
Nuggets
Spurs
Mavs
Blazers
Thunder

Thats 6 teams I’m pretty confident are going to be better than the Rockets. Then you got the Jazz, Suns, Hornets(a healthy Paul), Grizz.

Rockets were 42-40 and still finished in the lottery. They were 8 games out of the final playoff spot. So theres a chance they could improve 5 games or so and still be in the lottery.

its based on records.. teh swap.. there is a chance we dont win 33 games next year if Donnie strikes out.. brings in a bunch of one year guys and a B lvel free agent

The Nuggs and Spurs may regress.. the mavs are gettign old..

anything could happen..

Yao/Ariza/Hill is a nice front court.

My problem with signing Gay, who I like a lot, is that we already have Chandler and Gallo at the 2 and the 3. Gay, right now, is better than both, but I’d rather spend that money on a 1, 4, or 5. If we did sign Gay, than Chandler and/or Gallo become easier to trade.

Here is a fantasy:
Sign Gay for 13 mil
Trade Gallo, Curry and a future #1 for Okafor and CP3.
Sign Hakim Warrick for 3 mil and Amir Johnson for 3 mil

Lineup
CP3 (14.9 mil)
Chandler (1.2 mil)
Gay (13 mil)
Warrick (3 mil)
Okafor (11 mil)

Bench
TD
Walker
Johnson
Giddens
Barron
1st rd pick
2nd rd pick
2nd rd pick

You would have one definite All-Star in CP3. A budding all star in Gay. A solid defensive presence in the middle in Okafor. A workman PF in Warrick that will do the dirty work.

Walker and TD off the bench for instant offense.
Sign Earl Barron for league minimum as a backup C.

Of course, if LBJ knew that CP3 and Okafor were going to be on the team, he could decide to come over.

Lineup
CP3 (14.9 mil)
Chandler (1.2 mil)
Lebron (16 mil)
Warrick (3 mil)
Okafor (11 mil)

My only question with this lineup has to do with the compatibility between LBJ and CP3. Both need to have the ball in their hands. Would the whole be less than the parts with this lineup?

not the point

the point is everyone is making the 2011 swap like we will be switching a top 3 pick for a mid 20s pick.

Even this year, with all the problems the team had, we were not even close to a top 5 pick. Even the biggest Naysayer to Walsh, Mike D, whatever has to admit that with the worst case scenario the knick will at least be no worse off next year. Are you people concerned about regressing?

Yao/Ariza/Hill is a nice frontcourt. But is it enough to vault Houston to the top of the Western Conference? I mean, at best they will improve to the 7/8 seed.

Perfect post.

The way I interpret it Plan A is to sign (or trade for) a MAX LEVEL game changing super star.

Should that fail

Plan B is to sign a “Robin type” Free agent (10-13 mil) .. Fill in with one year guys and 2nd rounders.. keep 7-8 mil available and make a hail mary run after Melo in 2011… Or try to swing something INTRA season with Curry’s expiring deal

So someone please explain to me how the “Plan B” team can win more than 30-34 games in the East. The Rockets will be getting a 7 time all star franchise player back at least for part of the season and anythng can happen with respect to the aging Mavericks/Nuggets/Spurs.. Granted anything can happen in the East too but I just doing see how the Plan B team is any better than what we put out there at the start of this year..

Of course some thought THAT team had a chance at the playoffs.

So under “Plan B” the ROckets swap is NOT inconsequential and we are essentially hoping beyond hope that the ONE or TWO max guys may come to NY in the face of a labor strike that may eat up any available cap space we saved if they go to a hard cap or rejiggered BRI formula..

Not to mention Donie is two years older and in the walk year of his and the coach’s contract.

“Eh, I’m not a lopez guy at all. Never was.”

But you were a Hill guy right? He “needed time to develop”, but Brooke, putting up the numbers he already has in 2 years, isn’t “going to be that great”? How did Bogut look this year? Remember he wasn’t that good a couple years ago. The fact is Brooke is a Center and that position is very hard to fill even harder to fill than arguably the most important position in point guard.

“I’m fine with Gallo and Douglas.”

I like Gallinari, but Toney is without a position and will probably be better served coming off the bench in his career.

Jennings + Brooke + future picks + cap space would be an ideal scenario. No question.

Jennings + Gallinari + future picks would also be a better scenario.

Even Hill + Gallinari + future picks is not a bad situation, unless we go by _’antoni’s comments on Hill being a “bad rookie” we do not know what Hill is going to turn into.

explain to me how the “Plan B” team is better than what we put out at the start of this past year..

Not to mention there are some decent rooks coming into the East next year.. the BUlls and Heat will be spending and getting the max players if we dont.. and the Nets/Wizards wont have the injury/suspension issues that knocked them down a peg or two this year..

i dont think its 3 for 20 swap.. it COULD be if we are a lotto team and Houston gets the 8 seed..

im just saying that the houston swap is not inconsequential.. not the end of the world but potentially hella embarassing.

Man, that sounds really depressing..
Still, I dont think Plan B is that clear cut. Another scenario is to get a couple of really good (not game-changing) players who will be getting us into the playoffs and then keep improving the team through strategic, lateral trades.

so that looks like 2 robin type players cuz melo isn’t a game changer
it took him billups to get out the first round an it took him iverson to get into the playoffs.

bus isnt that a complete disaster? On par with Detroit signing Charlie V and Gordon??

wouldn’t that resign us to mediocrity of a 6-8 seed with 2 players making 10-12 mil for the next 5/6 years..like Lee and Gay and no flexibility to get the REAL game changer that we need to get to the 1-3 seeds??

Im sorry, whats the categorization for game-changing superstars? Does that just include Lebron and Wade? How about Joe Johnson and Chris Bosh? If we end up with JJ and Bosh is that a failure to some of you? How about Bosh and Gay?

Im just saying for me..One Max free agent and some decent role players with cap space is a success. Actually scratch that, any team that can be a top 6 seed is probably a success.

Houston will struggle to be a top 6 seed in my opinion in the West..As long as we don’t end up having to give up both those draft picks…By that I mean either not having to swap next year because we are better or by 2012 not having a top 20 pick. That seems to justify the trade at least a little bit.

And I disagree about building through the draft. If the Knicks stood pat and didn’t trade Jamal and Zbo, we would probably be looking at really late lottery picks or possibly around 20 for the pick that turned into Jordan Hill. We had no pick in 2010 thanks to Isiah, and then we are looking at rebuilding through 2011 and 2012 at the least, maybe even 2013-2014. The fact of the matter is we couldn’t really build through the draft, we had to make a move to count on the lure of NY as a marketing opportunity and MSG as a real lure to free agents.

You do not get the glory for having a conversation or being in it – you get the glory if you execute it and convince the FA to come here. It will be called a sales pitch and negotiation – it is called doing business – and if you cannot close the deal and sign the new “client” i.e. the FA – you fail – you do not do your job. Can we please start holding these front office executives to results and accountability – in the real business world – he would be fired. It is one thing letting multi-million dollar players get away with performing lousy (Eddy Curry) or not winning (David Lee) – but I am not going to let some guy (Donnie Walsh) who sits behind a desk or dials a cell phone off the hook if he cannot “convince” the big FA come here. The guy has to deliver – just like in business if you do not close the deal.

It is like getting the hot girl’s phone number (i.e. clearing cap space) but when you call the girl, you are unable to convince her to go out on a date and she rejects you (i.e. Lebron saying – I am staying in Cleveland). No one really remembers that as a success.

not to pick.. but if its a 5 year plan then why did Donnie trade all the expiring to move the timetable a year (2011 vs 2010)?

If it was a 5 year plan then arguably he should have sat back// Let the “Coach” coach.. accumulate draft picks until Crawford/Curry/Zbo et all expire in 2011 and THEN make a splash,,

my answer is it was a 2010 plan.. not a 2012 plan.. or 2011 plan..

Yes, and I believe a lot of us here (if I may speak on that) agree with that.

Right on.

game changing superstars put the team on their shoulders and win.

Bosh is marginally in that group.. Boozer is not.. Joe Johnson (we have learned) is not.. Kobe, Lebron, Wade, D12, CP3, D Will, Nowitski and a few others are players you build around and deserve to have a teams #1 spot.. Amare is a complimentary player as well..

BINGO

“If it was a 5 year plan then arguably he should have sat back// Let the “Coach” coach.. accumulate draft picks until Crawford/Curry/Zbo et all expire in 2011 and THEN make a splash,,”

Because he wants to make a splash during the best free agency period of all time. We traded 1 draft pick and Jordan Hill for a chance to sign 2 max players.
That’s called making a splash….

I hear you. Clearly we all want the game changer. But I’m sooo nervous about the talk now suddenly shifting to Melo. I don’t believe it to be anything more than speculation and I dont like the idea of shifting strategy to go after another phantom.

One could also get two good players who work out and do elevate the team and make it more attractive for a future move. I am not saying let’s stick with two ok players for the next 6 years. But we do need to get significantly better for all the reasons you are stating. Villanova and Gordon are a scary example but shouldn’t be used to disqualify any middle of the road approach if we cant get the top 2.

so if the pool is empty there is no splash..

that isnt a fail?

Agreed – enough with this – oh he gets to have a “conversation” stuff – you either have a successful conversation and seal the deal on Lebron – and if you do not – you admit you failed on the big plan and move on. You also get judged on the Hill/draft pick/Jefferies deal if no Lebron. It is the risk you take. Donnie went all in on this hand – we will see what cards the other guys are holding soon in July – there will be other hands to play – but if he fails on the current hand – yes – it is failure – he deserves to be called out on as a failed move – and we will take it from there and second guess any further moves he makes with everything he has made up to date if he fails in not getting Lebron.

This is about Lebron – plain and simple. The greatest player in the game. This is high stakes. One franchise will be set for a decade – the other will be scrambling to put together a buffet of players to try to patch together the East’s version of the Denver Nuggets. New York v. Cleveland – who will win? Hopefully New York.

Why is Dirk in that category of game changers?
He put his team on his shoulder and led them to a first round exit.
As did Wade, while CP3 didn’t even make the playoffs this year.
CP3 was hurt this year but what about last year?
You have to build a team.
Only player I put in that category is Lebron.
Kobe has a great team as does D12.

ok fair enough. So you are saying if we don’t end up with one of those guys everything is a failure?

I guess I would ask you back what I asked in the post before. Is JJ and Bosh a failure to you? How about Bosh or JJ and Gay? How about Gay and Boozer?

Im just trying to understand what constitutes a failure on DW’s part. He did all this to be able to land a max free agent or 2. If maybe we don’t end up with what you called a game changing superstar, but end up with 2 great players instead and can contend as a 4th seed, I don’t think that qualifies as a failure at all. In fact, I would say it qualifies as a major success.

all im asking for is a player who can be the GO TO guy in the fourth quater with 5 minutes to go..

KNOW that guy can get a good shot.. and give a chance to win.. That is a superstar.. sometimes they hit the shot and sometimes the dont.

Amare and Boozer arent that without a great PG to get them the ball. Joe Johnson has been small in teh 4th quarter and is not vocal enough or built for the big city #1 gun position in my opinion

Nowitski and Howard have done that in the past.. and revel in it..

you have to build a team around a super star.. or else you end up as a 7-8 seed in perpetuity.

depends on the price..

I dont think u get JJ and Bosh for less than the max each.. that would be good

JJ and Gay.. no.

Gay and Boozer.. no.

again.. both JJ and Boozer will command 14-16 mil per.. Gay will command 13 ish..

given Gallo and Chandler on the roster not the best use of resources.. NOW if they are packaged for CP3 (a game chnanger) then success.

he could have had it a year later by doing nothing..

If he doesnt close the deal he isnt successful.. Donnie would even say that.

Bosh is a 26 year old big man. It’s possible the he still hasn’t reached his full potential as an NBA player. Bosh will get max offers because he still has the potential to become a game changing superstar. I wouldn’t sleep on him. If we end up with Bosh after this summer, I might become a blessing in disguise imo

i had Bosh marginally in the group..

Not sure if he would embrace NY and take the hacks from the press when it comes.. But i’d be OK with him as a game changer.. even though he hasnt really translated it to the standings lately.

Ok, I certainly understand where you are coming from, I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

I just don’t see where our options were for improvement other than this way. We had to gut our roster and create cap space because I think it would have been extremely difficult to just stand pat and rebuild through the draft. We just did not have the assets and the fact that we didn’t have a pick in 2010 would throw a serious barrier in those plans.

Now, I did not initially support the Hill/Tmac trade and I still don’t. I think it was a desperation move and DW gave up too many assets. But if we end up being around the 4th seed, I am guessing it will be difficult for Houston to do any better than that in the West, therefore we won’t be giving up all those assets. And lets say we end up with JJ and Gay. The trade could possibly be equal to Jordan Hill and a mid 20′s pick for Rudy Gay. That would be fine in my opinion, assuming of course we are able to be pretty good next year, which I understand is a big assumption.

But I think a starting lineup of lets say Douglas, JJ, Gay, Gallo, anyone who plays some defense and rebounds with Chandler and Walker coming off the bench is good enough to compete in the East. Then we have some cap space next year and can get a decent role player at pg or center and we have a fine team.

I understand your point though, and I agree to a certain extent, just not that JJ and Gay or Gay and Bosh/Boozer is really a failure.

a team with JJ and lets say Lee back (not really putting much thought into it here) along with TD having a full year, Gallo having a full year, Chandler back and Walker for a full year.

While not having to deal with Duhon, Harrington, Hughes

imo will be much much better then the team that started last year.

I dont think its realistic to think that JJ or Boozer are going anywhere for less than max money..

Gay will get 13 mil from someone..

JJ turned down 15 from ATL.. Boozer would go to OKC (he really doesnt care about the locale) if they paid him.

when i said add a “Robin” this year i meant 10-13 mil players..

JJ is not that nor is Bosh or Boozer.

Agree 100% with Biggie

Here is what I’m wondering: If we were able to get CP3 and Okafor from NO for Curry, Gallo and Chandler, would it then net us LBJ? He would now be joining another all-star and have a strong defensive center who can rebound.
If we did get LBJ, we would have roughly $41 mil of cap space eaten up by those 3. How would we spend the remaining $12-13 mil?
We would still need a 4. Do we try to sign Lee for $11 mil? Would he give us a discount for the chance to play with CP3 and LBJ?
Do we go with a cheap alternative like Warrick to play the 4? Would he be a good fit in SSOL?
Amir Johnson?
Do we play TD at the 2 or do we sign Azibuike to play there?

CP3 (14.9 mil)
Azibuike (4 mil?)
LBJ (16 mil)
Warrick (3mil?)
Okafor (11 mil)

Bench
TD
Walker
Giddens
Barron
1st round Pick (purchase from Atlanta)
2nd round pick
2nd round pick
vet min
vet min

I’ll go back to my earlier question — does pairing LBJ with CP3 really work? Are they complimentary, or do they both need the ball in their hands and therefor limit one another?

So JJ at 16.5
Lee at (arguments sake) 12

leaves you 6 mil to fill out the roster..

and Gallo/Lee/Chandler as the front court with JJ and TD as back court?

with little or no depth on teh bench.. Walker and rooks/min players

Not sure where that roster gets you… painfully undersized for sure.

Gallinari will end up better than LOPEZ!

I’m not sure Bosh is a “franchise player” (I vacillate back and forth on that one). Johnson definitely isn’t. I think Carmelo Anthony is. So if you sign Bosh this summer, and that entices Anthony to come next year, that makes this summer a success. Plus, as others on the site have accurately pointed out, you have Curry’s expiring contract which becomes an asset for 2011. That is why if the Knicks sign Bosh this summer, I would be fine with passing on Johnson in the event they can’t sign James.

Everybody seems to be giving up on James though-as long as he hasn’t re-signed with Cleveland, and given his declared ambitions of becoming “a billionaire”, the Knicks are still definitely in play on him, regardless of what the so-called experts may wish to believe.

in the real business world he’d be fired?

Wrong.

results are all that matter. top of the eastern conference within 2 years. that makes them title contenders.

that’s a fair and realistic goal and one that knick fans should have signed for in 2008.

year 3 will be an exceedingly good job.

In the real business world, most execs dont get fired within 4 years after doing what they set out to do.

Donnie W since day one has wanted to get us under the cap so we can make a run at the FA’s. He has accomplished that.

If he fails to get the FA he wants, yes… its not a complete success. But the only way it turns into a fail, is if he overreacts and goes the way of Detroit.

I also have a hard time harping on the point that Donnie may be a failure. It seems many of you are already convinced he is, and are mad at people that feel he is doing a good job so far. If he completely misses, then his actions will lead to judgment.

It really feels like many of you want him to fail so you can say I told you so. He put us in the spot he wants us to be in… so far he is a success. If he messes up big time, I will reserve my judgment for when and IF that happens.

I will be disappointed if he misses on the big 3. But to give someone who has been doing quite well and accomplished all he has set out to do, which many many people considered impossible, absolutely no wiggle room… is unrealistic and unfair. Its an attitude that will always leave you unhappy.

Demanding perfection out of a human being is a recipie for disaster. It leads the decision maker into decisions that are not built on long term plans and only for immediate satisfaction.

I dont agree with your analogy. It doesnt fit.

Its more like in baseball, in inning 4 a pitcher can have an 0-2 count on a great batter and throw the perfect pitch… but the batter can see it and still hit it out of the park. In which case you tip your hat and go after the next guy. You dont remove the pitcher from the game.

you;’re talking to someone who was mocked for supporting hill here.

Bottom line guys is walsh knows the risk…

we’ll see what happens.

the bar is set.

ugh… whatever.

your right.. the knicks suck, Donnie sucks, Mike D sucks

LBJ, Wade and Bosh are all gonna go play in chicago together with DRose

The knicks are going to sign Gay and Hayword to Max contracts

Gallo is gonna break his back and chandler is going to quit basketball to become a monk.

All life sucks, I hate everyone.

im done. you guys keep arguing.

but the KNICKS were not

i dont think that you can count on yao making it through an entire season next year

“so that looks like 2 robin type players cuz melo isn’t a game changer
it took him billups to get out the first round an it took him iverson to get into the playoffs.”

Melo has been in the playoffs every year he’s been in the league.

Get it together baby

I agree

and when does the Garden blow up mr gloom and doom?

LOL

for 2010-11…

“Lord knows Lopez isn’t a game changer.”

Neither is Gallinari and he doesn’t have to wait for an entry pass.

ok i was wrong about him getting into the playoffs but he has always had good talent an never got out the first round even with iverson.

billups changed that team around last year…

So the point is that Lopez sucks?

I didn’tthink he was right for D’Anonti’s system and I thought he was a big stiff coming from college. But, I was wong. The guy is a very good NBA player. He also plays a vey valuable position . . . center. Again, the Knicks were desperate for a PG or Center. At the time they did not need another forward.

Let’s see Gallo actually do something on the road before we start declaring him better than other players in his class.

Dwight Howard does not put his team on his shoulders in the 4th quarter. He is still not a great offensive player. The one knack on him is that he DOESN’T dominate a game offensively.

“you have to build a team around a super star.. or else you end up as a 7-8 seed in perpetuity.”

That is why clearing room for two Max guys was so important. Those guys are more likely to come if another can come with.

bosh isn’t a franchise player.
he’s a good player on a bad team..

How can someone condemn Lee to death on this board for putting up empty stats on a bad team and playing no defense, then go on to deem Z-Bo and Craw our bet players and seemingly regret trading them away?

Trade for Bosh sign Lebron, just dream on.

bosh been in the league long enuff thats who he will be.

I will thank you and if I am right I expect you to admit, if I am wrong I will post a total retraction and admit Walsh is a genius.

that starting line up is a dream an i’m waking u up b4 freedy kruger gets ya.lol

but he’s only 26 and is a big man, don’t you think he still has room to improve?

lol.
craw an z-bo was the knicks best 2 players after they left lee became the knicks best player.
my point was if he doesn’t score big it was a waste cuz they expire next year an he traded jj which also expire next an traded picks for an uncertainty

That you may be right about. It seems to me that on a team looking to compete for a championship, Bosh is likely better served in the role as the”second guy”
(although I still think he has major upside). He”s probably talented enough though to attract a bigger player to come. That’s why I don’t love a Bosh/Johnson combination as a twosome to build around. It would have to be Bosh and somebody better than he is.

honestly i don’t think he will improve thats who he is
same with CARMELA..

I think Budinger would have been a better pick for the Knicks in light of the 7SOL system. I think Hill was a perfect pick for the 7SOL system, again Walsh screwed up.

How many ways can a guy screw up a draft? Walsh made major blunders with our draft picks in terms of who he drafted, what he did with those players and giving away draft picks only to have to buy some later. What kind of logic is that? What kind of moves are those, take a step back and look at the possibilities Walsh let pass by.

that is correct.
an sorry to tell u but that goes for CARMELA also..

how bout these JAZZ.

Exactly name a player with his size and athletic ability let alone the numbers he put up in Houston for the veteran minimum…..

People around here are either living in a Knick fantasy induced by the Kool aid or they live in reality because they refuse to drink from thine cup.

He could have basically done the same thing without doing much of anything. All the people’s contracts were up after the 2011 season.

He could have just kept on drafting and made some trades for more picks like the Nets did. In the mean time the big contracts would come off in time.

There was no reason to do what he did.

After watching some of these playoff games one thing is obvious, if you do not have some size at the center position you aren’t going anywhere. All the best teams have size in the middle and most more then one.

Cleveland has 3 players 7 foot or over. Most other teams have 2 or 3 players 6’10″ or over or some players who play big like Perkins on the Celtics. The teams who are small are getting knocked off.

Were is our size? And were is that size in the free agent market? There is none, so no matter what we do we will be a smallish team and that isn’t taking you anywhere.

Walsh has no risk, if he fails he rides off into the sunset with a call from the basketball hall of fame and a boatload of Dolan’s money.

If he does bring the Knicks back to respectability then he’s a hero and he rides off into the sunset with a call from the hall of fame and a boatlaod of Dolan’s money.

He’s in a win/win situation…LMAO. He has nothing to lose.

Lol.

they cant even get the lottery picks right what makes u believe there going to find 1 of those caliber players in the second round……………please……………..

What about them?

seriously, if the knicks get amare stoudemire or carloz boozer, im gonna be very disappointed. those guys are not going to win for the knicks. sorry.

Also, to me what is more than obvious is that defense isn’t of “the old era” and proves that it is just as important in “today’s NBA” as it always has been.

There have been commenters who have tried to dismiss defense as part of the 90′s NBA or that it’s becoming a run and gun league where scoring is paramount, but watching this postseason that obviously isn’t the case.

Bottom line is that DW has put us in position to sign LBJ and another max guy in 2010.

I’m good with the moves. BUT I don’t want DW throwing max money at LESS than max talent-Joe Johnson as an example.

If we whiff on LBJ save the max money for Melo and CP3. Don’t bring in LESSER guys for max money trying to trick the fans into thinking that we did something.

I’m good with filling out the roster with some pieces that will be here 2011 and beyond as long as we remain flexible for the 2011 class if we come up empty in 2010.

Who knows maybe DW already has a backroom deal with LBJ that will be akin to the Ewing “frozen envelope” lottery speculation of 1985.

All I know is i sure didn’t think i would see my last Knicks Championship at age 13. I’m approching 50 and one is still no where in sight.

Bottom line guys is that “this argument” cannot be put “to rest” until July.

We’ll see what happens.

The bar has been set and there’s no sense in trying to lower expectation/start damage control before he succeeds or fails at Plan A.

aahhahahaha……………

they played well
but the lakers have a bigger team an thats going to kill the jazz
i see a 4-1 series unless d-will averages 30 points the rest of the series

M O N E Y M A Y A L L D A Y !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Agree. That’s why I’m actually OK with taking on Okafor’s contract if it nets us CP3 of Collision. While Okafor has an ugly contact, I think the Knicks would actually benefit from him in the middle. He could match up with all of the best Centers in the playoffs. He won’t dominate them offensively, but he will play good defense on them. What a refreshing change he would be from Curry and Lee (on defense).

First off a player like Lopez is way harder to find than a player like Gallo just go to europe there like a thousand of them. Second, I like Gallo too and believe he has more potential than anyone on the team but he is replacable. If we replace Gallo with a player like say Rudy Gay the production from the SF position would not slip at all in fact Gay is a better player. The point is there are a lot of good players who can play the SF position that is just not true for the center position. Therefore, Lopez has way more value than Gallo its not even close. Finding an all around center is as difficult as finding a true point guard SF are a dime a dozen they just are. The league is a SF league and basically the SG and SF position have become interchangable in terms of skill set and the size needed to play the position. So the issue of who is better is really silly because Lopez plays a more valued position and he is at least top 5 in his position. Gallo is not even in the top 15 SF in the league and that does not even count all the SG who sometimes switch and play SF. This is why I have been screaming that we should trade Chandler and get value for him right away because he plays a position that is replaceable. You really cannot compare players abilities who play different positions. What you have to do is understand their value to the overall league. Lopez is by far the better prospect not only because he puts up better numbers than Gallo but more importantly his value in the league is much higher than Gallo’s.

Um . . . wrong blog

Yup. Two things stand out to me. Great PG play and size in the middle at the C and/or PF spot. Why the Knicks refuse to draft a C (Lopez, Bynum, Nene) or a PG (the list is too long to list) is beyond me. Unless we start running the triangle, the Knicks need to get a PG in here ASAP. Same with a shot blocking big man.

I just don’t understand the logic behind our drafts but I’m hopeful that July 1 will make everything more clear.

I was never on the Hill is a bust bandwagon. I was mostly criticizing D’Antoni for not playing him because Jeffries and Harrington are both somewhere between mediocre and bad anyway. So how much were we going to lose by playing a guy that could get us close to 10 boards a night and also and score better than Jeffries if you gave him starter minutes. He should have been worked into the rotation much sooner. All that said, he’s probably not going to be an all star caliber player because he’s already 23, but he can be a productive player for sure.

LOL.
Let’s break it down:
What are the chances the Knicks could get CP3 for Curry’s expiring contract AND Gallo AND Chandler?

NO gets to clear $25mil off their books. They get a valuable trade chip in Curry, AND they get two very promising young studs on the cheap in Gallo and Chandler.
If you’re NO and you think CP3 might leave in 2 years, and you have Collision to run point, do you take this deal?

I’d also be OK with Collision and Okafor, and a pick, for Curry and Chandler.

Now, if the Knicks can make one of these trades, how does that make them look to LBJ?
You’d have a lineup of either:
CP3
#2 (TD?)
#3 Walker
#4
Okafor

or
Collision
#2 (TD)
#3
Gallo
Okafor

if either of those trades go through, how much does that increase the chances of LBJ coming here?

If the trade is for Okafor and Collision, then the Knicks still have $34 mil to spend on the cap. They could still sign Joe Johnson and LBJ if they wanted.

Collision
Johnson
LBJ
Gallo
Okafor

It’s a fantasy, but it’s not a unreliable fantasy if the trade with NO is made. LBJ could sign NY with the understanding that they have the flexibility to make these trades, but he’d probably be more inclined to choose NYK, if we have already obtained these players.

To people who think that I’m just being negative I’ll give you an example.

For years I bitched and moaned about the Jets refusal to draft/sign a true franchise QB and players who could stop the run. Now the Jets have done that and I’m 100% with management. The team was shaky last year during the year but I was patient with them because I loved the foundation they were putting in place (Sanchez, Greene, Jenkins etc.) and I understood Sanchez was a rookie and we were killed by some injuries (Jenkins, Washington). I didn’t necessarily agree with the Taylor signing or moving up to draft Vlad, but you know what, managment has earned my trust because they are building the right way. And they did not sit back in the offseason and say we made the AFC championship game we are good, nope they signed major free agents to compliment the players they had drafted or traded for. That is how you build a winner. Giants did it the same way a few years ago.

Back to basketball, I have never seen a team try to “rebuild” the way the Knicks are. We are trying to build a house without a foundation. We are trading away our draft picks and if you look at our roster we are not building from anything. We are “hoping” that we sign a free agent and then build around that person (without any picks). Creating cap space does not earn the trust of a fan base, results and/or sound decisions do.

So until you see the end result I don’t see how you put this argument “to rest”.

Thanks for this post Tommy, this has been fun!!

Comment by HaS
2010-05-02 17:42:29

“Lord knows Lopez isn’t a game changer.”

Neither is Gallinari and he doesn’t have to wait for an entry pass.

well IMO a game changer is a special type of player .. you usually dont get a game changer after a top 3 pick MOST OF THE TIME …

Rose is a game changer from that draft and Westbrook looks like he in on the verge

the thing is cp3 is a franchise p.g an also franchise player n.o isn’t going to let him go just to clear cap(only if they had donnie as g.m.lol)
the more likely trade would be collison an oakey dokey fer.

we will findout what kinda brain donnie has
this summer there are alot of ways he can improve this team without free agency but since he traded away picks he’ll have to trade away the rest to make trades for talent..

he better use that old school bx talk an get them players to sign or g.m to trade..

I don’t think you were just being negative, you have a very good point.

I just like to point out that unlike the Giants or Jets, the Knicks were in an extremely unique situation when DW took over. They had the highest team salary in the league and one of the worst overall rosters, with a team of mismatched players that couldn’t play together and were THOUGHT to have no trade value(I capitalize this because it might have been proven wrong).

Unlike lets just say the Nets, the Knicks didn’t have any pieces to trade for draft picks. At the time, just unloading the really bad contracts of Crawford and Randolph seemed to be a miracle, and thats not even including Jared Jeffries and his ridiculous contract.

Also, unlike the Nets, the Knicks did not have a draft pick in 2010, which would have hurt them obviously if they tried to rebuild in the traditional way through the draft.

So DW was left with 2 options as far as I saw it. Wait out all the expiring contracts to 2011, or try to make a splash before then with an amazing free agent class. Obviously we know which way he chose to do things, and I can’t say I disagree with the thinking behind it.

That being said, obviously there have been a ton of mistakes made along the way, which everyone on here is well aware of. Not even counting this years disaster of a draft, you could and have argued very well that Gallinari was not the right pick(as you know, I disagree with that).

But all this being said, I still believe DW has put us in the best position we have been in as a franchise in at least 9 years, something I would not have thought possible 3 years ago before he took over. I would just like to know what you think DW should have done, outside of all the details just what his major plan should have been. If you’re talking about building through the draft, that is a plan that probably wouldn’t suceed until 2012 at the earliest.

building through the draft int he NBA isnt like Football..

you really only get one shot.. in football you can find gems all up and down the draft

In basketball for the most part.. unless you get REALLY lucky and get in the top five via the lottery THEN pick a superstar you have to target players who are established.

Wade wasnt the player he is today when he was chosen 5th.

Durant over Oden was a gimme putt. OKC was fortunate that Portland went with Oden.. you can go down the line..

Can you strike Gold at the 6 or 8 spot or in the late first round? Sure.. but more often than not NBA draft picks fizzle out at worst. There are very few game changers..

Hind sight is 20/20.. Could we have done better in the draft? in retrospect absolutely.. But getting that game changer through the draft in the NBA isnt a given.

“I would just like to know what you think DW should have done, outside of all the details just what his major plan should have been.”

Without going into specifics I would have liked for Walsh to have:

(1) Drafted better

(2) Kept the team competitive through sound free agent signings (Duhon was a disaster and yes I was adamantly against it at the time) and trades, especially by signing more PGs and Cs

(3) Accumalted draft picks through trades

(4) Gotten D’Antoni more defensive minded players

(5) Hired a full time GM while he remained team president.

I agreed with the plan to clear cap space if the team remained compettive and didn’t trade its picks while doing it. A difficult task but not impossible.

U know, I know this will never happen, but if the Knicks signed both Lebron and Bosh and say they traded Curry’s expiring and Chandler for Darren Collison and Emeka Okafor, why don’t they just trade Gallo for RFA Rudy Gay in a sign and trade? I mean then for sure u would have 5 guys that not only can run the Dantoni system, but 5 guys that can also play defense as well. Just a thought……Collison, Lebron, Gay, Bosh and Okafor……that’s pretty damn good.

We really do need a legit C that can hang with Howard and Horford, I think Okafor can be that guy. I love CP3 but I don’t think we have the pieces to pull him out of NO, but Collison is a pg in the same mold, imo. Kid average 12 pts and almost 6 (5.7) ast as a rookie to go with his 1 spg, he did avg 2.7 TO’s a game but Tyreke Evans who could be rookie of the year averaged 3 and that number should come down for both of them. He also hit 40% of his 3pt’s granted that was only on 114 shots so small sample sizes may apply but he did shot 39.4% in college so I think it would be safe to say teams wouldn’t want to leave him open out there. Has a lot of potential and would leave us a lot of space to fill in around, not to mention I could see us being able to keep one of Wilson or Gallo if we take Collison back instead.

Now Okafor is pretty much non-existent inside on offense so we would need our PF to provide that presence inside and I think Bosh has enough range and enough explosiveness to make up for our lack of a scorer inside

Collison (1.3)
Azubuike (6)
Gallo (2.7)
Bosh(16)
Okafor(11)

Bench:
Curry (11)
TD(1)
Walker(1)
Giddens(1)
Barron(1)

That puts us at 52 million or 4 million to fill out the roster with 1 year contracts or 4 mill for one more player off the bench on a 1 yr deal.

Then we either let Curry expire and have room for a max next year or we trade Curry’s expiring for a SG thats a little cheaper and give us some flex in the future.

Flexibility and a pretty big front court (3 guys at 6’10″), 2 guards that can play D, 3 starters who can shoot 3 pts at a very efficient rate and 2 guys inside who avg 10 rpg a game.

Just a thought but in the East I think that size and shooting would throw a lot of teams off. Gallo while a little stiff did a decent job stopping his man and will at least put the effort in. And with Okafor and Bosh (to an extent) guards will at least have to peak into the lane before they make some heroic run.

+ 1

Couldn’t have said it any better.

I don’t think people are saying that defense is not part of the new era (and if they do they are clueless), I think the feeling is that it has become tougher to play defense because you can no longer play rough, hard-nosed defense…in the 90′s you couldn’t get into the lane on teams with big up front players because you were allowed to get physical. Defense today requires a lot more finesse and a lot more actual skill because you will get fouls called for almost anything nowadays and you have to be more than just a big body.

one of the things that pisses me off is when people say “donnie should have drafted better” like its such an easy thing to do. drafting a player is a very thoughtful, intricate process. you have to scout, evaluate, and make decisions, and then even after that, its still a crapshoot. dark milicic had oustanding workouts and top level scouts likened him to elite centers, take that example. sure, looking back on it the knicks “should” have taken brandon jennings. but how many fans on draft night were saying that? As i recall, people liked the hill pick. sure curry and rubio were off the board, but the knicks snagged the best available talent at the position they lacked. they grabbed a big man with good feet and a nice offensive game who can block shots. but he was still a project. then as the season goes on, he starts to rack up the DNPs and in unimpressive in the game action he sees. fans label him as a bust and say he is worthless and not a part of the team’s future. then we trade him, and with that trade clear up the 10 mil in cap space everyeone so DESPERATELY wants, and suddenly it was a horrible trade. fans calling for donnie’s job to be pulled, saying “how could we have traded jordan hill, he is gonna be a stud!” yeah, the same fans who called him a bust during the season.
jennings had serious makeup issues. arrogant beyond belief, he went to europe, and crashed and burned there. unimpressive in europe and with a small frame, he we not the most logical choice. jennings’ skill set is not that of a franchise playmaker, it’s that of a stephon marbury. Honestly, on draft day, how many people said “oh we should have taken jennings hes so much better than hill” These same people turn around and act like freakin nostradamus when jennings drops 55 on a Warriors team that playes the worst D in the league, a team Lee put up 37-20-10 against, and the knicks lit up for 158 points last year.

people need to stop being so quick to hate on donnie. he can’t do anything right in the public’s eye. but he was hired to do one thing: clear cap and he’s done that. honestly, everyone hated crawford and z-bo while they were here, and he got rid of them. he traded mr. untradeable jefferies himself and put the team in the best posisble position he could. honestly people, grow the F up

haha I wish, it fits but we’d have no cap space for any kind of bench. We have 3 commited on the bench right now, Collison makes that 4. Bosh and Lebron takes it to 36, Okafor’s money brings that number to 47 so does Gay take less than 10? maybe he does to play with that line up, but it is a possibility.

“the thing is cp3 is a franchise p.g an also franchise player n.o isn’t going to let him go just to clear cap(only if they had donnie as g.m.lol)”

I’m sorry which franchise player did Donnie trade away to clear cap? Was it Crawford? Randolph? Hill? Jeffries? Nate? I guess it was the magical game changer we drafted in 2012.

Picks are an uncertainty as well…don’t make me list the number of top 10 draft picks who have gone on to do absolutely nothing in the NBA.

Next year is also an uncertainty…besides, you hate Melo and seem to think he is overrated and a girl apparently, so who else are we getting in 2011?

Everything is an uncertainty in this league whether it’s draft picks or the chances a marquee free agent signs with your team; you have to take risks, Donnie’s done that. It’s a big risk that could reap a really really big reward or could fail miserably, but it’s a risk that, in my opinion, was necessary to give this franchise a shot at regaining some much missed pride.

one time John Mcay was hired by the awful Tampa bay bucs.they gave him a five year contract.after he retired he said “I had a 5 yr contract so i invented a five yr plan.If they had given me a 10 yr contract,i would have had a 10 yr plan!

well when you knock down a house ,and leave a pile of rubble ,thats not rebuilding,thats just knockin down a house

Excellent post.

The best thing about it is that Donnie knows all that.
Once he signs that game changer (maybe 2) I’m sure people will start to bitch about how we don’t have a bench lol.

The bitching never ends my friend.
I’ve just learned to live with it.

so hes not the 2nd best player in the league now?

“the numbers he put up in Houston”

So we should have drafted Jennings and Hill was a bust, then he’s perfect for the 7SOL system with his 6.4 ppg and 5 rpg that he’s putting up in Houston…such whopping numbers.

You mean draft pick with no “s” Granted you apparently hate the Gallinari pick, but many Knicks fans like it a lot. It was most definitely not a blunder. He messed up the Hill pick, so I guess there’s just one way a guy can screw up a draft and that’s drafting someone your fans think you shouldn’t have drafted. PG was a need yes, but we also were void of big men, which Hill was. He didn’t get any burn and he was poorly handled and eventually used in a high risk high reward trade, so it was a blunder…Donnie’s only blunder.

Why does everyone assume draft picks are immediately successful and always pan out? Yes I love having high draft picks and love banking on promising players out of college too, because it’s nice to have young, talented guys on your team; but the chances of finding a superstar through the draft are not very good when you don’t have a top-3 pick.

You can’t possibly say “look at the possibilities Walsh let pass by” when Walsh’s plan relies solely on the possibilities he has given us. Is the 2012 draft pick the and the Jennings blunder these wildly amazing possibilities we are passing by? I hate having to watch Jennings play well, don’t get me wrong, but we still have tons of possibilities. Not drafting Jennings did not cripple our franchise by any means, it was just one single missed opportunity.

Great analogy…such amazing insight.

Yea Walsh just destroyed our franchise, burned it to the ground. That 2012 draft pick and not drafting Jennings just crippled the future of the New York Knicks. Of course it isn’t rebuilding…it’s more like “decomposing” because Walsh obviously has no plans other than to destroy this franchise.

This is just silly. So drafting is “hard” so Donnie shouldn’t be criticized for getting it wrong.

This is the real world. I have no loyalty to individuals. All I care about is the Knicks winning a championship.

Ok fair enough, although I do think it was impossible to accumulate draft picks through trades- after the trades Donnie was being praised for not having to give up draft picks to get rid of Z-bo and Crawford. Beyond that we had nothing of value to trade for picks.

I agree with everything else. The Duhon signing in particular was brutal…at least he didn’t give him 5 years like Isiah probably would have.

keep hating on Gallo. after westbrook, Gallo is by far has the highest potential in that draft class,

u go with Foye and T. thomas/ ratliff …

Replace Johnson with Gay and the team is a little younger, a little longer, and you save some money we can use to add a decent bench guy.

Collison
LBJ
Gay
Gallo
Okafor

TD
Walker
Giddens
Baron
(Vet big man for the 2-3 mill u save on JJ)

same dude says wrong blog next coment talks about the Jets………………….funny dudes on here.

M O N E Y M A Y A L L D A Y !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am with Tommy on this one. You guys are being ridiculous. So, what did you guys expect from Donnie? Not have a plan or not to go about one? What is the argument here? You have this great free agent class coming up and all Donnie did was to do whatever it took to put us in a place where we have made ourselves attractive to the free agents. Lebron, if he wants to come here, can try and convince somebody else that he wants to play with to come here and play with him. Imagine if there was enough for just one free agent – we would have Gallo, TD, Chandler, Walker, Curry as the core along with Hill and Jefferies. Now would that be more alluring to lebron or a choice to bring in whoever he wants to add to the core? It may still not be enough, but it is definitely a better situation. Donnie put us in that situation. Now, if nobody comes, that by itself does not make it a bad plan. So, unless you expect Donnie to be able to predict the future, where is the question of failure? He did the right thing then. Now he has to do all he can to make sure somebody takes his offer. Again, all he can do is try.

On a different note, I am encouraged by Lebron stressing in interviews that he is never going to leave Akron, as reported by Alan Hahn. He refuses to commit to Cleveland. Unless he is thinking about leaving, why would he be so specific about Akron and not talk about Cleveland in general? I think he is going to leave – hopefully to NY.

Also, Dirk’s second thoughts are encouraging too. I think he is realizing that he may have to move to the East Coast for an easier ride to the Finals. What better way than joining LeBron for the ride? Again, hopefully in NY.

Howard? He isn’t 2nd best. Near the top for sure though. But that wasn’t the point. The point was that offensively he can’t put a team on his back in the 4th.

The best defender no doubt.

But watch the playoffs. When Magic need buckets look and see where the ball goes…not Howard.

That’s why someone like Vince is so important to them because he can create for himself

the “argument” is that Donnie has to close the deal to be considered a success..

to borrow an analogy used earlier.. Its not enough to just get the hot girls number.. you have to get the date.

In my opinion it doesnt matter who is on this roster.. Lebron will come if Lebron wants to come.. He will want to come here if the money is right (besides the NBA pay check) and he has trust in the team to surround him with the pieces he wants..

Donnie is in position.. now he has to close the deal.. And it isnt just Lebron.. as I’ve said.. it needs to be a game changing super star.. otherwise why did we throw away two seasons?

Well lets see, u would have Collison, Lebron, Gay, Bosh and Okafor. u would have a bench so far of Douglas, Walker, they could re-sign Barron, they could buy a 1st round pick or 2 in the draft like they did last year to draft Douglas, ATL said they will sell there pick, Memphis has 2 1st round picks also, they might trade one of their’s also, we also have 2 2nd rounders as well. I mean i agree a bench is important, but if they create that starting 5, people will live with whatever the bench is. If it is not Lebron that comes, it could be Joe Johnson or Ray Allen at SG with those other 4 guys.

Actually, believe or not I thought they needed a point guard more than a PF and since Jennings was the best prospect at that point in the draft he should have been selected. Also, Jennings did not crash and burn in Europe. He went to a big name team with a coach who pretty much refused to give him minutes because he was a youngster. It actually helped him big time because it humbled him. You talk about evaluation of talent which is all true if walsh had actually done the homework. What was walsh’s excuse about jenning he did not do his homework. So on the issue of Jennings your point is moot. You bring up Marbury as everyone always does when they want to diss another player haha. The facts are that the problems with Marbury were never skill set or talent they were mental. Now maybe you know Jennings personally but to basically call Jennings a selfish head case before he has done anything to show that is absurd. Marbury is one of the few players who averages 20 and 8 assists for most of his career. Marbury’s problem was not playmaking it was alienating his teammates. Does Jennings have this problem I have seen nothing to suggest that. So if Jenning has marbury’s skill set minus alienating his teammates I will take it. I think post really shows where the knicks management was probably coming from when they looked at jennings. They saw a tattooed young man with a flattop and said he must be Gangster run for the hills. When Dolan and company stop trying to judge people based on appearance and more on skill set maybe we will win a little more. Seems like tthe last time we did that Latrell was leading this team to the championship game.

Durant over Oden was a gimme putt. OKC was fortunate that Portland went with Oden..

explain this…

EVERYONE Would have drafted ODEN. He was the CONSENSUS pick. Durant was never first. No GM had the guts to pass on Oden.

HaS gets confused. He likes to twist points…NO SHOTS.

I’ve said the bloodbath Knicks-Heat Knicks-Pacers are gone in favor of an open floor euro game with half court tendencies down the stretch.

Saying the NBA playoffs is without defense is saying that an NBA level head coach can’t coach defense.

If we have any chance of signing one of the game changers I think we have to come out of the draft with a pg or C of the future if not both. That’s why I think Donnie has to purchase enough draft picks to move up and get a player of significant value or make the trade for Okafor and Collison on draft night. I know a few of you are hesitant to take back Okafor’s contract without getting CP3, but what if they threw in #11 overall? We are taking back a pretty heft contract and only getting back complimentary talent so the pick seems fair to me. Wison and a 2nd for Collison, Okafor and #11 overall? Pick or not though we need to get that trade done and still have one of Wilson or Gallo in the chamber to keep or trade in the future.

Geez. Before putting your comments on record you should read a bit more about Jennings’ experience in Europe. He should be lauded for it instead of criticized. (If for no other reason than he stuck it in the eye of the evil, exploitive NCAA.) He struggled on every level and still stuck it out to the end. He is a better person for having done it. Imagine being a 17/18 year old kid and playing in a league against much older players who are disinclined to like you and support you and who otherwise speak a different language. I’m sure its much more difficult than playing at home for an elite organization like Arizona.

Walsh claimed to not have done his research on Jennings. Too bad for us. The best players in the NBA are criticized for being arrogant. Apparently arrogance is an occupational hazard among the elite players in the league.

You are right though about one thing regarding Jennings: He is slight.

The plan has always been to sign superstar(s) this offseason, with flexibility being the fallback. Flexibility could be atrocious if donnie handles it poorly, but pretty fruitful if he’s savvy about it. I have confidence in nearly everything he does, outside of drafting of course.

You should read Bill Simmons article on Greg Oden before the draft. He foresaw all of these problems and he said some GMs were hestiant about Oden.

He described Oden as a 70 year old man.

Point is, taking Oden was not unanimous.

Im not so sure that EVERYONE would have taken Oden

i read the Simmons piece.. their were MAJOR questions about Oden physically..IIRC there were discussions beyond Simmons as to whom was going to be the better player..

That said.. What I meant was that after Portland went with Oden Durant fell into their lap — a no brainer.. . that is why OKC was fortunate.

especially after they learned that he his legs were not equal size..

but that isnt the point of my post..

I was at the lottery…no one was talking durant. Oden was the prize.

No one.

sorry for misinterpreting Big.

Yes. But, closing the deal is in the future. The question is, at this point, did Donnie do the right thing or not. We cannot make decisions in hindsight. Getting the hot girls number is a must if you stand any chance of getting the date. Without it, there is no date. So, let’s get the point straight – do you believe at this point that Donnie did the right thing or not? Put down your thoughts now. After all these talks, what if LeBron does come to NY? All this negative talk and wasted emotions, wouldn’t it all be for nothing. What a waste of time… Don’t paint yourselves into a corner. Give things a chance first to be successful. We can deal with fallouts later.

“HaS gets confused. He likes to twist points…NO SHOTS.”

How am I twisting points? There was a whole article written on it here and many posters have hitched their bandwagon to that theory.

“…an open floor euro game with half court tendencies down the stretch.”

Oh, you mean down the stretch when it’s time to win the game? I really don’t see a “euro game” dominating the NBA in the playoffs? Who’s playing a “euro game” right now in the postseason, the Suns?

Also, I was specifically talking about the playoffs not regular season games btw.

“Saying the NBA playoffs is without defense is saying that an NBA level head coach can’t coach defense.”

You finally admit that _’antoni cannot coach defense. That’s progress.