Sunday Notes

“That also would appear to answer the ‘who are the max players’ debate that we’ve been having. If Amar’e is a max player, then I pass if I’m the Knicks.”

Even if that’s what LeBron wants?

As much as I’d love to pass on him, if it gets LeBron, they’re gonna do it. Sad, but true.

Rondo has the PG Skills and Toney has the offence..Their defense is about even to me. Can’t wait to see Toney’s development this year…

I like Douglas as much as the next guy but they aren’t the same type of player. Douglas is not a true pg. Douglas is a better shooter sure, but Rondo will always be faster, better ball handler, better passer, better finisher, better rebounder.

I think Douglas can be a really good player but I don’t think Rondo is the guy to try and make comparisons with. I mean Rondo is a top 5 pg in the league.

But I get your point. Douglas will get better and get better with more talent around.

I like Toney Douglas, but let’s remember both he and Rondo are the same age. Both have turned 24 this year. It’s hard to see Toney developing to a near Rondo level given that fact. If he were around 20, then I’d agree. Toney is a good role player, not a stud PG.

As far as max contracts, it’s a question of supply and demand. You have teams like the Heat, Bulls, Knicks, Nets, and Clippers all clamoring for a max free agent, plus Phoenix, Cleveland, Toronto, Dallas (now with Dirk), and Atlanta looking to keep their players.

You’d have to think that as the pool of available resources, players, dwindle, the demand will go up. So let’s say after Bosh and LeBron get their max deals, the Bulls, Heat, and Phoenix are all hot and bothered for Amare. You know they will pony up the do-re-mi in a NY second.

Someone will get left at the altar, without a star player. You can’t go back to your fans and say well, they wanted too much money after you tanked your season and depleted your roster to get a max free agent. Its a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Rondo is a pure PG with excellent passing ability. Douglas is a combo gaurd in a PG oriented and dominated system. I think Douglas could be very good in the triangle. D’Antoni’s system is not suited for Dougals in my opinion and I think D’Antoni probably agrees based on his reinserting Duhon as the starting PG at the end of the year despite the season being all but over.

That would/should have been the time to give Douglas a real tryout as the team’s starting PG going forward.

If Melo resigns the Knicks will be in a position where they almost have to spend that money this summer, otherwise what will be the alternative? Hope that the Hornets get tired of Chris Paul and do a sign and trade during the season? Go with one year contracts again this year and another 30 win season?

Douglas doesn’t have PG skills, so comparing him to Rondo is ridiculous. He is a SG trapped in a PG body. He has terrible court vision, and isn’t a very skilled passer. Eddie House and Tracy McGrady were better distributors last year. Even David Lee was about as good a passer as TD. He can become a Jamal Crawford type player with a higher BBall IQ and better defense. I think thats his ceiling though. If you can’t pass you definitely can’t play PG for D’Antoni. He went back to Duhon because TD couldn’t play the point! I don’t see how you can compare him to Rondo. Besides their speed and finishing ability, they have absolutely ZERO similarities. Rondo is an elite PG with elite passing abilities and court vision, and a below average outside shot. Douglas has a great outside shot, but isn’t a good passer and doesn’t have very good court vision.

+1
Everything you said I agree with 100%.

“I still don’t get how a guy who can’t win with the most pros in college is somehow the missing piece to an NBA franchise. ”

Great point Tommy. I hate all this talk over Calipari being the missing piece or something. That Kentucky team was one of the most talented college teams I have seen in a while, and all it took was for the other team to start clogging the lane and preventing the cuts to the basket and that was it for Kentucky. No adjustment, no innovation. Just chucking bad 3′s because they couldn’t drive.

I like Toney Douglas, but to compare him to Rondo at this point is just unfair to him. Douglas can certainly improve, but his vision and passing needs to show dramatic improvement before he can be compared to one of the best pgs in the league, if not the best right now.

there is a huge advantage that Rondo has compared to most other pg’s (certainly TD). He has been playing with KG, Allen, and Pierce and is being coached by Doc. He took his NBA baby-steps in an environment of professionalism, accountability, and team-first attitude. As talented as Rondo is, I have no doubt that the formative years of any player are hugely impacted by the character and work ethics of those who surround him. I am really hoping that the culture of the Knick team will change dramatically after this summer and resemble one with focus, determination, and purpose. I always felt that we had good young players who couldn’t reach their full potential because of this problem. TD is still young, I hope he can take full advantage in his development with some real new players..

yeah, i basically disagree with this entire post…and I wasn;t comparing him to rondo, I was asking why douglas can’t be an excellent guard in the NBA.

People weren’t sold on Rondo as an NBA PG coming out of college. That and his jumper caused him to drop.

this

1st, I dont understand how Amare being a max player was EVER in question.

2nd, I’d actually prefer him over Bosh but he and D’Antoni dont get along so it doesn’t matter anyway because he wont be coming to NY.

3rd, I think Douglas has a better shot and is actually also a better defender than Rondo but Rondo’s a better PG. That doesn’t mean Douglas couldn’t be a part of a winner though.

Come on guys.

…”Bottom line for me is that there is no reason to believe that Toney Douglas can’t become an excellent NBA player if given the chance to develop with talent around him. Maybe not Rondo good, but they have similar skill sets. Superior defenders, long arms which allows them to slither in the lane and finish, open court speed, etc…”

Im also just gonna say, I don’t think the fact that Dantoni went back to Duhon reflects negatively on Douglas. It reflects more about Dantoni and his stubborness to me. He himself said he wanted to help Duhon with a contract next year for all his good work, and if anything has shown that he has an obsession with Duhon and favors him beyond any other player.

It just shows how bad Dantoni’s approach was to last season, basically looking to get bad selfish players more money for the rest of their careers instead of developing young guys and holding players accountable.

Douglas certainly had bad moments, but Duhon’s entire season was a bad moment. He was terrible, yet Dantoni went out of his way to keep him starting and playing big minutes. Duhon could not have played any worse, yet he kept being rewarded with big minutes. Douglas outplayed Duhon significantly even when he wasn’t running the offense or getting assists, but none of that matter to Dantoni. Duhon was going to play no matter what come the end of the year.

Toney is a little long in the tooth to become a true point guard at this stage, if he had a player to throw it into the post and he masters the entry pass it would take a lot of pressure off him in the half court offense.

I think Rondo and Toney are close in speed (Rondo may be a little faster), but Rondo is far more explosive vertically imo. His confidence with the ball is crazy also, being able to pass it to a spot on the floor, the lead pass, passing with either hand, off the dribble etc..

I hope he can make gigantic improvements over the next season or two in regards to his point guard skills, but the “coach” also has to have confidence in his playmaking ability for that to happen. The fact that he didn’t play the position to end a meaningless season doesn’t bode well though.

Similar skill sets, yes but Rondo’s a much better passer and Toney’s a much better shooter.

But it was clear right away that Rondo had great court vision and was an excellent passer. Almost every rookie PG struggles with their shooting. Thats one of the easiest thing to work on. You also have to remember that Rondo was only 20 when he joined the Celtics, so he was a lot less polished. Douglas was about as polished a rookie as you will find. He already has a great outside shot and is an excellent defended. I don’t believe a 24 year old can learn how to be a PG, when he doesn’t seem to possess any of the necessary traits. I don’t think court vision and passing ability is something that he can just learn. And I never said that TD can’t become and excellent guard. I said that he can’t become an excellent point guard. I think he could be a very good combo guard, and a spark off the bench. This system requires a true PG though. I don’t think that D’Antoni is going to change his system to fit his player. Instead, he is going to try to find the players to fit his system.

I would almost say that PG’s are born PG’s, and their instincts kick in at an age or a “certain time of circumstance” where/when they choose to take the responsibility to be a facilitator. And its not based on size as in Oscar Robinsons case, Magic’s case, Shaun Livingston’s case, or even in a player of small stature like N8 who you would assume would have in high school or college would have either gravitated to that position or would have (based on his size) instinctively chosen to assume that position. Can those skills be taught? Can an old dog learn new tricks? I believe TD can be an adequate “back-up” PG whose play consist mostly of playing off the ball and being an option for a facilitator, but TD is not a natural PG. Its not a part of his DNA!

As for Bosh, Bosh, It does not sound to me as if he “or his agent” is going to leave 30+ million on the table, and since Walsh “blinked” and traded away all his chips at the end of last year I would like to hear what all of Walsh’s “get it” guys-what all of his “in Donnie we trust” guys have to say now!

Amare is way, way overrated. I think Phoenix lets him walk, and uses the cap space to make a play for Bosh-how good would they be then?

Unfortunately, Toney’s “formative years” may have been at Florida Stare, they’re the same age and Rondo has 4 years in the league under his belt while Douglas barely played this year and none of them meaningful games.

Yeah Rondo was setting assist records in high school!

My point was, which I dont think I made clear, was Douglas has skills but right now he’s not in Rondo’s league.

That being said, I do think Douglas would have plenty of success if he were playing with KG, Pierce and Allen.

Exactly, thats the difference. Rondo is a pass first PG which IMO is ideal but in a pure shooting aspect he cant compete with Douglas. They are similar, mainly because of their defense, but not quite the same.

Not playing Toney Douglas and Jordan Hill in favor of players that weren’t part of the Knicks’ future, reflects the type of dischord that plagued D’Antoni in Phoenix with Steve Kerr. It’s a form of disrespect for the franchise after spending a lottery pick and 3 million dollars to get players to build around.

If D’Antoni wanted a veteran team, he should have waited until the right offer knocked on his door. Now it’s looks as if we are trying to buy a veteran team for him to coach with 30 some million dollars. We don’t own our first round draft choice until 2013, so young talent isn’t coming.

I mean we all can look at it anyway we want. Douglas had plenty of time to shine, but d’antoni felt off the bat duhon gave them the best chance. it’s not as ridiculous a notion as people claim. People just despise duhon.

when it was finally clear it was a wrap TD stepped in and played well. My point is rondo HAD to be a better passer bc HE COULDN’T shoot.

when you don’t look to shoot, you pass. Now he looks to shoot and gets people involved. Why can’t toney learn that?

Several questions still not answered. That’s what I want to know. Why can’t he become an excellent NBA guard.

If only the Knicks can get Minnesota (triangle offense) to bite on a TD for Flynn trade!

Amare is a lot better than most East Coast fans give him credit for.

yeah, well… I was trying to end on a positive note.

I think he wanted to see Douglas as a 2.

I also think srod may have more upside at the point.

I think Phoenix looks for a sign and trade as they would only have about 10 million in cap space if Amare leaves. Plus they need to pay Channing Frye as he can opt out of his 2 million contract and become a free agent.

“Several questions still not answered. That’s what I want to know. Why can’t he become an excellent NBA guard.”

So, why not force Toney to play the position in a meaningless end of a season? He needed to have all of his growing pains THIS season, sink or swim those “questions” would have been “answered”.

Hmm. OK, they’re out then.

They’d run Khan out of town on a rail if he ends up with nothing from having the 5th and 6th picks in last year’s draft. Minnesota has the 4, 16, and 23, plus possibly trading Al Jefferson, so they would probably look to fill out in the draft. Sessions might be available.

“My point is rondo HAD to be a better passer bc HE COULDN’T shoot.”

Obviously. A player that couldn’t pass and couldn’t shoot wouldn’t exactly have a great career in this league. Thats not really a fair statement though. Rondo was a good passer, because he always had great court vision. Point guards are supposed to look to pass, not shoot. John Wall is a very good outside shooter, but he looks to pass. PG skills aren’t just something that you learn by default when you can’t shoot. And I think TD CAN be an excellent combo guard, but he can’t really be an elite player if he doesn’t have a true position.

That’s why I think _’antoni failed this season, a person’s character is built through the obstacles they face. The “coach” had a chance to distinguish himself with obvious obstacles in his way and he failed miserably. You can all wait to judge him when he has “his players” if you like, but I think his shortcomings are going to limit his growth as a coach and stop him from becoming a championship level coach in the NBA.

Mike D’Antoni was a point guard and I think he understands how a point guard needs to play.

Toney Douglas played well but he didn’t take care of the basketball – if Mike D’Antoni believed that he was not 100% ready and needed to learn more in practice… it’s OK. I couldn’t care less about Chris Duhon because he’s not a long-term option but Douglas’ development is crucial and he needs to deserve his minutes.

“People weren’t sold on Rondo as an NBA PG coming out of college. That and his jumper caused him to drop. Bottom line for me is that there is no reason to believe that Toney Douglas can’t become an excellent NBA player if given the chance to develop with talent around him. Maybe not Rondo good, but they have similar skill sets. Superior defenders, long arms which allows them to slither in the lane and finish, open court speed, etc. And Douglas is a better catch and shooter. That’s serious expectations from here, but Toney himself knows how good he wants to be and will work his tail off to get there.”

“yeah, i basically disagree with this entire post…”

“You say you basically disagree with this entire post, “BUT THIS IS WHAT YOU POSTED ! THESE ARE YOUR THOUGHTS! HOW COULD YOU DISAGREE WITH YOUR OWN OPINION”!

You said “TD and Rondo have similar skill sets”?

No they do not! I think you forgot your coffee this morning!

I don’t.

I’d take a guy who accumulated 20 assist in one game a year ago!

This is the scouting report on Rondo 5 years (keep in mind he and Toney are the same age) ago: (via Draft Express)

“As a point guard, Rondo is of the pass-first variety, being highly unselfish and featuring excellent court vision and passing ability. Although he didn’t always get a chance to show it, he is everything scouts look for in terms of being able to run a team, particularly his intelligence and poise with the ball in his hands, along with his ball-handling skills and natural talent in finding the open man. Rondo is at his best on the drive and dish, being able to get into the lane almost at will thanks to his terrific speed and ball-handling ability, and once he does, being highly creative in finding open shooters spotting up on the wing. He didn’t get to show this off too often, but Rondo is a very flashy playmaker who can thread the needle to spectacular lobs from the perimeter or sharp bounce passes to open cutters. Although his assists average isn’t incredibly high, his assist to turnover ratio is one of the best amongst point guards in this draft at 2.11/1. Rondo is a very confident ball-handler going either left or right, keeping the ball very low to the ground, and is excellent at breaking the full-court press thanks to his terrific speed and poise.”
-Rajon Rondo NBA Draft Scouting Report: Strengths – 4/17/2005

Also from Draft Express:

Toney Douglas, was one of the most efficient players on our list, using over 20 possessions per game (20.7). His overall PPP of 1.04 was the second best of all players, while his PPP as a finisher of 1.22 was sixth best. As a jump shooter, he scored 1.41 PPP on unguarded catch and shoot attempts, and 1 PPP on pull ups. A gifted off the ball player who scores 1.23 PPP (5th) shooting off of screens and 1.14 PPP in spot up situations, Douglas is only an average shot creator (.85 Isolation PPP), but he doesn’t turn the ball over in the half court almost at all (9.7%, 2nd), has experience running the pick and roll (5.3 Pos/G, 2nd), is an excellent defender, and seems like an ideal complement to a taller ball-handling guard. His stock has risen in recent months, and will be interesting to how his limitations as a distributor (he ranks dead last in amongst all passing metrics amongst draft-eligible PGs) factor in to where he’s selected on draft day.

The good thing is Toney is an excellent ball handler and doesn’t turn the ball over, however in order to learn the position he’s going to have to get over his fear of turning over the ball, he doesn’t seem confident in his own ability to make passes/plays. Players like Kidd, Nash and even Rondo will have high turnover games because they believe the ball is going to get there, they are very confident with the ball to a fault at times and will make the difficult passes.

Rondo > Douglas : Rebounding, passing, athleticism, wingspan, creativity and overall feel for the game.

Rondo = Douglas : Defense, speed, leadership “potential”

Douglas > Rondo : Shooting

It will be interesting to see Douglas play next season.

I think Toney Douglas will be a very good player if the Knicks sign a ball dominant superstar.

Sessions can’t shoot though. We have seen how bad this offense looks with a PG who can’t shoot.

* “HOW COULD YOU DISAGREE WITH YOUR OWN OPINION???” *

Aside from the team being bad and your better/players with the best potential needing to play, practice isn’t the same as game experience.

How about this for a DVJ moment by Tommy Dee (man Tommy is going to hate me for this):

(1) “and I wasn;t comparing him to rondo, I was asking why douglas can’t be an excellent guard in the NBA.”

Minutes earlier:

(2) “Bottom line for me is that there is no reason to believe that Toney Douglas can’t become an excellent NBA player if given the chance to develop with talent around him. Maybe not Rondo good, but they have similar skill sets. Superior defenders, long arms which allows them to slither in the lane and finish, open court speed, etc. And Douglas is a better catch and shooter. That’s serious expectations from here, but Toney himself knows how good he wants to be and will work his tail off to get there.”

Seems like a comparison to me . . .maybe I should “read better”

I agree. I’d just rather see him coming off the bench.

Play where? D’Antoni wouldn’t even play him this year when the season was over.

Agree with the comparison except I don’t know how Rondo and Douglas can be equal on speed (with the ball) and leadership “potential”. What are you basing Douglas’ leadership potential on that would make him equal to Rondo?

“I don’t think the fact that Dantoni went back to Duhon reflects negatively on Douglas.”

I agree, somewhat. But D’Antoni is our coach for the foreseeable future so . . .

Having a true PG makes the games so much more exciting. I despise Boston, but that team has been BY FAR the most exciting team to watch in the playoffs because of Rondo. Honestly, the Cavs were really boring to watch this year. Their offense was very stagnant and they didn’t really move the ball. I think LeBron would be scary good if he had a talented pass first PG. I don’t think he is at his best when he is playing point forward. He was just forced to play there because the Cavs didn’t have anyone else. I don’t want the Knicks to imitate the Cavs system. I want to see D’Antoni implement LeBron into his system. The Knicks should try and trade for either Collison, Rubio, or Parker. I would be psyched if the Knicks got any of those guys. I think Collison would be the most likely, because Kahn refuses to trade Rubio and we don’t really have the trade assets to get Parker.

Does it really matter, because the Knicks do not have the sign-and-trade chips (do DLee want to go to Toronto?) to get Bosh, and if Amare don’t want to take less to play with MD and Phoenix don’t want DLee or vice-a-versa thats not going to happen either!

This was my point above. D’Antoni could have played Douglas as the PG for the rest of the season after inserting him as the starting PG but didn’t. I think that answered the question about whether Douglas could be our starting PG going forward.

There is nothing wrong with Douglas having a distinguished career as a combo gaurd sixth man. Nothing at all.

carmela is not an option.carmela is AL chuckster version 2.0

“He” may, “TD” may, but i would not say the same for the Celtics! No way would the Celtics have won a championship with TD at the point, and no way would they be on the verge of winning another one with TD as their “facilitator!” Not happening!

douglas will be a good player as for playing p.g it’s all on him if he doesn’t want to no1 will.

every1 needs the rite situation along with rite coach an players to develop certain aspects of there game..

He’s a better shooter than Rondo! “Way better!” Taller, just as quick, and also a dam good defender!

This word overrated what does it exactly mean?

Amare carried the Suns down the stretch dominating and playing well at both ends of the court to end the season. How is he overrated? He played well and his team was winning. Over the past sixty days what are your criticisms about his game. He can’t hit threes?

Everyone has, deservingly, questioned his injury history, defense, and maturity. So what exactly is overrated about him.

Right now he is stuggling against a pretty dominant front court with the Lakers which were playing at home. He is far and away better than anybody on our team . . .

well my hope is at least that without veterans with expiring contracts and a stable team with young players signed long-term, Dantoni will coach the way he should coach. I believe that without veterans to take care of that Dantoni will focus on the young talent. Thats my hope at least. I understand that could be completely wrong.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one. I don’t think Sessions would do well in NY. Tony Parker can’t shoot either but he is so deceptively good at getting to the basket and settting up his teamates I think he could play here.

As for the 20 assists, didn’t Duhon have 18 one game too against Golden State. I wouldn’t want him here either.

It is a comparison!

So let me get this straight!…Because nobody thought that Rondo would be this good, Toney Douglass wiil be real good in four years…I DONT GET THE CONECTION

1. Douglas will… nobody knows what douglas ‘will be,’ but he has the raw skills to be great, so there’s always that chance. He plays just like chris paul did when he came into the league, but he could also plateau after half a season… but stop trying to predict. We got a great bargain for the 29th pick, a player that the vet PGs hate playing against beceause of how tenacious he is on D… so lets see, it will be fun.

2. clearly the internet has gone into a frenzy since lebron lost, and people realize how easy it is to make up stories that even ESPN will report if it gets to the right hands. Callipari story is garbage; his wesley connect is nice but that doesn’t change the fact that lebron has no interest in playing for him and it has nothing at all to do with where he goes. LeBron isn’t going to demand a coach and wouldn’t care unless it was either Phil Jackson or Greg poppovitch. And i honestly believe his third choice would be d’antoni.

3. i can’t remember my third.

3.

Yeah that would seem counterintuitive to me. Now that we are supposed to be a good team (next year with FAs) D’Antoni will focus on developing youth?

Seems the time to do that was last year when the season was over and he could have given guys like Douglas major minutes. Putting back Duhon in when the season was OVER told me all I needed to know about what D’Antoni thought of Douglas as his starting PG.

And honestly D’Antoni was right. Douglas isn’t a PG. I said it right after the draft.

its ok we’re gonna pull off a sign and trade for bosh with brand

“He plays just like chris paul did when he came into the league, but he could also plateau after half a season”

Oh no you didn’t . . .

I remmebered my number 3…

If we have to sign and trade for bosh, wouldn’t it kind of ruin our cap room situation?

Curry, Galo, Lee for bosh? I’d do it because then we have enough room for 3 max which is a joke.

Was that in agreement or disagreement? My only point was that he has amazing potential but there’s no way to know how it will pan out.

“Critics point out that his assist rate (5.4 assists per game career average) is mediocre, especially combined with an undesirably high 2.52 turnover-per-game ratio. In addition, his lifetime free throw average hovers around .700, which is considered below average for a guard”

Just one scouting report of Tony Parker!”
When Tony Parker get to the rim he don’t pass even with bigs waiting on him! K4L, Your way off on this one! Remember also Pop had him coming off the bench even when he got healthy again because of Tony’s shoot first / look for his own shot mentality!

WELL,I guess thats the reason that Douglass will never be a good PG…NEXT

I agree that Douglas has potential to be very good. I think he has potential to be very good as a combo gaurd though not a PG so the Paul and Rondo comparisons don’t make sense to me.

Also, my oh no you didn’t was with the Chris Paul comparison. You should temper that level of expectation. If he can stay healthy Chris Paul may go down as one of the better PGs to ever play the game. He is that good.

+2

Paul averaged 16 points and nearly 8 assists per game over his rookie year. Douglas averaged under 9 points and 2 assists per game. Plus, Paul was only 20 when he entered the league, and Douglas was 23. You can’t compare Douglas to CP3.

I thought he was coming off the bench because Pop is in love with George Hill. You see how he put Parker back in there when they were getting eaten up by PHX though.

To be completely honest I don’t know Parker’s stats and will trust your represenation of them. I know from watching him that he is very good at running the pick and roll and setting up his teamates off the drive and is good in the open court which will all work favorably under D’Antoni. Plus he already has the experience and championship pedigree.

He may struggle, like I said he can’t shoot, but I think he has a better shot at succeeding here than Sessions.

Then again I also thought/think Rubio would do well here so maybe you shouldn’t take my word on Parker. . .

Again, “NO” they do not have a similar skill set, TD’s skill set is “scoring guard” oriented as opposed to Rondo’s which are “POINT GUARD” oriented!

Didn’t Duhon have like 22 assists in a game two years ago? Does that mean that you wanted him on the team this past year?

I like the trade. But why trade Gallo for Bosh when you could (potentially) sign Bosh straight up with your cap space?

Is it just to give up Curry’s contract. After trading Hill to give up Jeffries contract I think I would have a problem with that. We have to stop trading our assets/picks on the hope that we can sign a superstar with free cap space.

We already have money for two max free agents. Lets start building a team.

Have i figured out that your one of Donnie’s “get it” guys correctly!
Well Brand, Chandler, and Hill might have got it done if Walsh would not have panicked and urinated on himself in front of the guy he was trading with!

Nice to see in writing what I’ve seen all season: Toney is a 2. Can he be a 1? Maybe, but I don’t see it in this offense. I do think he’d be GREAT as a “combo” beside LeBron for 5+ years; that’s for sure.

Yea i was just comparing their style of play. They are both super quick off the dribble, and very strong for their size. Great defenders. My point wasn’t to compare them, it was to say that you can’t determine how things will end up.

Hey I just said that ^^^

Lol. It is a good point though. You shouldn’t base your free agent signing off of stats in one game.

Ask Isiah Thomas how that worked out with Jerome James.

“We have to stop trading our assets/picks on the hope that we can sign a superstar with free cap space.”

under normal circumstances i agree with that comment. I’m a knicks fan, i am familiar with those mistakes. However, these are not normal circumstances. If you can have enough room to sign 3 max players in a year that wade, lebron, bosh, amare, boozer, dirk, etc are all free agents, you trade ANY asset for that possibility.

Capspace in 2010 is worth quadruple it’s usual worth, if you have enough of it. that’s why walsh gave up draft picks to get more of it.

not in 4 years BOB
this coming season if he gets the starting job he’ll average close to 10 assist with 16-20 pts..

yup rondo had 99 assist in 1 game
1 away from the record..

Toney Douglas is 24 years old. Some of you guys talk about him like he’s 44 years old.

He can still develop skills as a pg with the right people around him. I don’t think the the “old dog” metaphor applies in his case at all. It wasn’t too long ago when most of the rookies coming to the nba were 22+ years old. I don’t think that they were all “finished products” in their rookie seasons either. Toney is still young, motivatied and seems to have that intangible killer instinct, which is something that cannot be taught imo, so I think he will turn out fine.

As for Rondo, I still can’t believe we took balkman ahead of him lol…See guys, drafting the right player is not as easy as it seems after the fact, is it? Passing on Rondo at number 20 could turn out to be a bigger mistake than passing on Jennings with the 8th pick last year.

I would say Rubio and Sessions are similar players-same height, weight, basketball IQ, passing ability, only sessions have a little bit more quickness and athletic ability with less “hype’ to his game. Come to think of it i might start to come around to you guys thinking on Rubio, If you guys promise to try not to force this guy upon us.

passing on players is not a mistake if the player was not known to be good at the time. People refer to past drafts and say teams made mistakes by not picking so and so, even though ‘so-and-so’ was never considered good until years after he was drafted. How many of you wanted to draft brooke lopez? Zero.

I guess everyone in the league is stupid for not drafting ginobli, boozer, etc.

They both have very similar size, quickness, and scoring ability. The only difference is that Paul is an elite passer and has unbelievable court vision.

Are you trying to be funny?

I’m not sure your math is correct. Curry ($11.3) + Gallo ($3.3) = $14.6 million off our 2010 cap space. 30% of $56 million = $16.8 million for a max player. We are still $2.2 million short for that 3rd max player. We can barely afford 2 max players now, so any trade for a 3rd max would have to eliminate an entire max contract, or $16.8 million, off our books for 2010.

Soo someones thinking trade Gallo, Lee, and Curry for Bosh.. Hmmm then maybe sign Lebron and Joe Johnson and have a big three of Joe, Lebron, Bosh? O god with Toney at point and a big body like Jerome Jordan at center…

Wasn’t doing that Einstein, I was just pointing out the ability that he is superior to over TD!

Do you know what a pretext is?

Its when you “ASSUME” the basis of a “text” absent the “context!”

Yea, that equal leadership is a wild assumption.

Rondo has proven it for back to back playoffs, I think we saw the beginning of that in last year’s playoffs when KG was injured.

Toney hasn’t lead poo in the NBA at all, playoffs aside.

Did you read the draft express profile for rondo posted above?…he sounded like he was going to be pretty good to me. I’m not calling anyone stupid lol…i was actually trying to point out that picking the right player in the draft is not as easy as it seems. I believe that Isiah was above average when it came to draft picks (especially late round), but he missed that one and it turned out ot be a big miss.

I admit that I wasn’t one of them, but I remember a lot of knick fans who wanted donnie to pick brook lopez that night. I actually wanted eric gordon that night, but the past is the past, and gallo may still turn out to be the right pick. We will see.

I think tommy made a huge mistake by even mentionong Rondo’s name when comparing “similarities” to Toney D…Rondo is the hottest PG in the league right now and rightly so and the truth of the matter is NO ONE in the league is on his level right now and the best PG’s in the league (DWILL, CP3, DROSE, NASH, & WESTBROOK) are phenominal in their own right and would be unfair to compare the them cuz their is no right comparison or argument that puts one undoubtedly above another…(it’s like comparing who’s more beautiful Kim Kardashian OR Beyonce…they are the most beautiful females alive and comparing them does each one an injustice)

The best comparison for TD is CHARLIE WARD…TD has more speed but Ward was a better passer…but both were above average defenders with great shooting abillity…Bottom line TD has to become a better passer!! I think he showed a lot of good things in his limited Playing Time at the end of the season…During Summer League he should GREAT passing ability with 22 assists in 2GAMES and EVERYONE was questioning his shooting ability. Then during the season he showed that he CAN SHOOT and then everyone criticized his passing ability…I agree he wasn’t the best passer BUT he didn’t turn the ball over a lot . What he did show was that he gave his all everytime he was out there (whether it was 2min ot 35min)…HE SHOWED THE PRIDE HE TAKES IN D…HE SHOWED HIS PASSION AND REFUSAL TO LOSE NOT AFRAID OF TAKING BIG SHOTS (like VS Philly & Denver)…he showed his SPEED.QUICKNESS.UNSELFISHNESS.DETERMINATION.GREAT SCORING ABILITY. PASSION. And willingness to work on his game…Like i said in prev threads I don’t know how in a blog where we all have different opinions on how to fix this team WE ALL UNANIMOUSLY AGREE that the 90′s Knicks is what we would like to mold our team after and there is NO ONE who has donned the knicks jersey in the past decade who resembles the 90′s Knicks mentality like TONEY DOUGLAS!!! He is not the best PG out there but he is someone that i’m very excited routing for going foward…He is going into his 2ND YEAR PEOPLE and he has shown more potential then we give him credit for…with another summer to train, learn, polish, and improve his game i think he will impress. His work ethic is unquestionable, his willingness to improve is undoubtable..and his Potential is higher than we gave him credit for before he got real burn…I for one am very excited to see TD & GALLO (& maybe Wilson depending on how the Summer goes) in a bigger and more defined role on this team because tho every pundit is hating on the ASSETS the Knicks have I am excited about the new wave of Knicks basketball that could mean a lot more winning that the city & the fan base DESERVES!!! We’ll be the most Hated franchise inthe NBA and i”d much rather play that rolethan the continuing Laughingstock that quite frankly this fan base doesn’t deserve!

P.S. (to Has, X, DaGawd, BOB) This ain’t Kool-aid drinking it’s genuine Optimism for the Talent this team has & the potential Star power that this team can acquire. A lot of it depends on D’Antoni and if he doesn’t live up to HIS Potential i will be joining your I HATE D’ANTONI TEA PARTY and run this guy outta town!!! BUT my faith right now lies w/ Donnie…he’ll come thru (he’s too smart, connected, and respected not too IMO) GO KNICKS!!!

Yeah that leadership potential quote didn’t make sense to me either!

Why settle for Joe Johnson? Why not make the 3rd max player Dwayne Wade…since we are dreaming and all, we might as well make it the best case scenario LOL

Ok I agree that as of right now Douglas isn’t a pg.

Maybe I didn’t make my point well. I think Dantoni came into this year not really having expectations of winning, along with a team full of unwanted overpaid veterans. For whatever reason, Dantoni felt obligated to play those veterans to increase their value for their next contracts. I wholeheartedly disagreed with this, but Dantoni made it clear in a quote that he felt obligated to give those veterans minutes for their next contract.

My hope is that without all those overpaid veterans on the team along with hopefully some talented players Dantoni will believe that the roster he has can win. Therefore, he will actually coach and play the guys who give them the best chance of winning, which I don’t think he really did last year.

Again, this is all inexcusable anyway. Dantoni did a terrible job last year, I don’t think anyone on here would debate that.

And yes, I agree Douglas is not a pg right now, and might never be one. But there is still a chance for improvement. He just needs minutes. Which I hope he will get without guys like Duhon on the team.

But I guess thats why I keep saying I hope. I think you are right, but I hope you are not lol.

I totally agree with Mucha,you can’t throw TD in if he ‘s turning the ball over at an alarming clip it will kill his confidence and his teamates.You have to earn it in practic and he wasn’t ready at the time the same with Hill and Curry you can hurt players by playing them when they haven’t earned the time IMO.With all that saif he might of waited a little too long on TD and that very well could be a DAnt fault.In the case with Curry playing him more would hurt his value he was so bad.

You can’t remember the “3rd” because your writing in your sleep!

TD might not be a great point but he can guard both position very well and if you move the ball around alot negating a point position he could be quite affective.With Lebron as a point forward himself TD could fit in very well.I love Rondo but coming out of college he had a very bad outside shoot,terrible shot.I loved his defense then and now,he has suprise me with his improvement,he’s a very smart guy which I underestimated.I think Rondo is now a great player and he and the coaching staff get alot of credit for his developement.If Lebron won’t mind I would consider coach Tom for our coach the celtic defense looks awesome.

Your not going to be able to sign Bosh straight up because Bosh nor his agent is going to leave 30+ million on the table!

Its not the about drafting the “right players” its about having the “right GM!”

Hydro your right that profile looks pretty good,that’s why drafting is so hard you go by that profile your ok but then you bring the guy in for a workout and he can’t throw a beach ball in the ocean bricking every shot and many thought twice.You have to evaluate a pass first guard in a game situation all those draft combines suck for pass first guys and you end up drafting a workout warrior who looks like Tarzan but plays like Jane.

But Lebron will? Or are we planning on doing a sign and trade with Cleveland too.

I really hope Tony Douglas ends up being better than Charlie Ward. . .and I liked Charlie Ward.

NO, Walsh gave up those draft picks because he panicked and he don’t have foresight or good judgment!

Bosh and his agent want Bosh’s money, LBJ want “A RING!”

ward had scoring ability?
i guess i was watching another ward playing with the knicks.

t-doug comparison is lindsey hunter as of rite now.

an kim K an beyonce are not the most beautiful woman in the world or on t.v both are as fake as a 2dollar BILL.

From what I’m hearing you say, especially your last sentence -”BUT my faith right now lies w/ Donnie…he’ll come thru (he’s too smart, connected, and respected not too IMO)” – I would say that’s not kool-ade your drinking but just some stale Walsh-ade!

You might should have stopped writing you thoughts down, the “2 dollar bill” is actual “legal tender”, as “legal” and “tender” as those 2 woman!

Tommy Dee’s been smokin’ that smoke again. Pay no attention.

lol i ment 3 dollar bill
an i do have a 2dollar bill saved..

amare his first 4 years in the league he was a monster but after playing in a soft system that demands u to compete on mr softy level an injuries amare is just another overrated player as of rite now..

good post well said
atleast some people knows what’s going on…

Dudes still trying to defend the indefensible in regards to antoni coaching decsions…I mean dang….so sad…let it go.….just STOP….plz…dnt do it 2 urself…..hahhaha…..what makes anyone think that TD would fold by turning the ball over and going threw the growing pains that it takes to be a pg in the NBA…jennings for example went threw it while his team was trying to make a playoff of run……NO EXCUSE….evans wasnt ready to be a “pg” or had “pg vision”….nor was westbrook he probably turns the ball over more then anybody and doesnt have “natural pg skills” but there rookie seasons was the time for them to learn the hard way when there was no expectations in regards to win lose records for the most part…….TD was the ACC player of the year his senior year and his first real action at MSG he tried to take the team on his shoulders and took the game winning shot without hesitation…he tries to bring the team to a huddle during free throw attempts….him and ILL WILL are always communicating with coaches throughout and at the end of games trying to soak up anything they can 2 get better…..he’s not scared……he’s not going to back down….he’s a tough kid….you can see that by the way he goes threw screens instead of around them like rondo does at time……defensively TD is better……but anytime you want a rookie to learn how to play a position by watching YOU BETTER have a veteran in front of him so the kid wont pick up bad habits……does anybody think that the St. Louis Rams are going to sign Jamarcus Russel so Sam Bradford can sit and watch and learn from him and his bad habits……I mean really…..you watch too many bad habits over and over again you will begin to subconsciously pick them up more times then not…….duhon… I think it was against the heat turned the ball over the first four possessions and he still kept him in……. I mean seriously…There was nothing there to say he was the best option we saw that the end of last year…antono needed up 2 like the last 2months of the season to realize this…..this has been said 2 many times……and what wouldhave been the worse thing to happen by us playing TD and Hill from jump we turn out 2 win less then 30 games and as a result were back in the lottery….hahaha….I mean seriously……….If antoni was all about winning games then he wouldn’t have bench Nate for a month…..there were games to be won but antoni continuously does the indefensible…and if he wanted to prove a point in being a disciplinarian then he should have benched nate right after he shot the ball in the nets basket but he kept playing him…..INDEFENSIBLE…..Hill watching lee play the front court position is the worse thing that could have happen to Hill in teaching him how to become a winning player whether being a star or role player…… Until Amare realizes that in order to actually play “STANDING TALL AND TALENTED “ you have to play both sides of the ball to be a Winner and be successful….antoni had a kid right out of high school with aspirations of being the best player ever in his mind….his quotes….that was the time to take a impressionable kid and mold him to play BOTH sides of the ball most importantly the defensive end to be an “ELITE” player……but so far we see the outcome of that situation……

Oh and 1 last thing RONDO WOULD NOT BE RONDO IF ISIAH WOULD HAVE DRAFTED HIM TO THE KNICKS SO HE CAN SIT AND WATCH STARBURY CRAWFORD AND NATE PLAY POINT GUARD besides everything else that was going on..…STOP IT………….1

I don’t think Rondo and Douglas are anything alike at all.

Douglas has the outside shooting, but may not have the passing skills and court vision to be a good PG in the pick and roll.

Rondo has the passing skills and vision, but doesn’t have the outside shot yet. Of course Rondo is already so darn good at everything else, it really doesn’t matter that he’s not a great outside shooter. If he develops an outside he’ll just become a super elite PG instead of an excellent one.

With Douglas it’s still hard to know if he will develop the skills he needs to excel in our system. He can still become an excellent player, but excellent PG in our system is an entirely different issue. Also, keep in mind that Douglas is no spring chicken. He came out of college late and is a lot older than many of the other young PGs out there (24). So he may not improve as much as some as the others have as he gets more playing experience.

Guys. Maybe I should have been more clear. I was not comparing rondo and douglas as exact players, they have similar skills but that wasn’t the point. I was “comparing” or essentially asking why Douglas can’t be a good NBA guard and be a late first round steal like Rondo.

TD

You know that answer so why don’t ya say it?

It’s because our dumba-s-s coach decided he wanted create Nash out of Duhon! TD couldn’t be our starter over our prized mule, Mr. Special Ed!

I think by year end he was already a competent player. He’s probably going to get better, but I question how much because he’s not really all that young. The one thing the young players improve on most is shooting. That’s the one thing Douglas is already good at. If we pick up Lebron or another really good play maker, I think we’ll be fine with him as the Moe Williams equivalent, but as a starting PG I think he’s a little shaky. As bad as Duhon was last season, he was the better pure PG

okay! because everyone overlooked Rando ,Next season Toney Douglass will be an all-star…Oh thanx for clearing that up,i thought i was speaking to my six month old grand son

I”LL tell ya why douglass cant be an excellent guard in the NBA.To be an excellent guard in the NBA ..FIRST…….you have to be an excellent guard!…IT DONT GET MUCH MORE SIMPLE THAN THAT

i played basketball for two weeks straight last summer with my 30 year old sons,and their friends(full court)and after the 2 weeks were up…..I WAS BETTER THAN CHARLIE WARD…(and not once did i speak to Jesus)

great, great piece on rondo and toney…..and i couldn’t agree more……i was watching the celtics/magic game the other night, saying to myself…..shoot, rondo would NOT be doing all that on Toney…..Toney plays excellent defense, and is very strong, Rondo would not manhandle Douglas as he does Nelson….

Toney i think will be just fine, he got better at running the offense every game he played last year, especially running the pick and roll….not a doubt in my mind, that Toney can be a rondo, and certainly be better than Jameer and Fisher…..

its OFFENSE with an “S”