Douglas: I Want to be a Complete Player

(Cant sleep)

I like TD’s game

…But the one thing that bothers me about him, even more than his work in progress court vision and decision making(not really his fault)is I wonder if he has an extra gear he can go to.

He kind of plays at the same pace and speed from what I’ve seen in the summer league. I’ve yet to see him show the ability to really turn the corner and get into the lane at all. That makes me question just how good he ultimately be.

Aside from that he looks like he’s gonna contribute nicely for our squad. He gives us something we really need at this point, and thats another ball handler on the roster. That dept is very very thin.

And you gotta love the work ethic

Who is better in there prime TD or Charlie Ward?

I also think Rashad McCants should get a training camp invite!

Rashard McCants failed to show up for a Cavs summer league game according to PDCavsinsider Twitter

did Charlie Ward have a prime?

I have been a Knick fan for a long time. I’ve always felt that Knick fans were generally sophisticated and would tolerate and even enjoy a young team that grew together and developed. Regardless of result in terms of wins and losses. Just give us a team that plays smart and hard and was heading in the right direction.

Well, as the roster is currently constructed I think we have that team. Its very sad – ridiculous – that it took so many years to get to a reasonable starting point. But I think that we are at that point.

So, I’m looking forward to this season. I hated the Isaiah Knicks. I hated that they didn’t draft Jennings (especially the reasons they gave for passing him up). I hated that they traded a pick to get more cap space.

True, we have a dysfunctional owner. Second generation billionaires tend to be this way. But we have some really great young talent to look forward to seeing develop. So, win or lose I’m gonna embrace this team and hope for the best going forward.

Tickets would have been much more difficult to come by had the Knicks signed Lebron. This team will fly under the radar until it begins to click. But I think it will click. It will be a fun team and it will win sooner than people think. And as fans we’ll be there from the start of a new era.

I just thought since I’m up early today I’d put this out there.

Cheers.

Yes, in college. As a football player.

Hey, Lebron failed to show up in the deciding game of a playoff series. It happens. Move on.

I

Whats good black and HAS and the other regulars?! I have to say that i love this knick team more than any over the past 10 years. Amare is my new fav knick (excluding Ewing H2O camby and LJ)Amare brings this attitude thats been surely lacking, I see him talking in interviews he gives me hope to believe that the knicks are really back and he is ready to be a leader for this young squad. Out of the three GSW that we got Azbuike will be the best this season while randolph will be the best player in the long run. Im not saying randolph wont be good this season but i just think azbuike will surprise alot of you guys with his O and D.

lmao

bwaahaha lol

Lol Charlie Ward is about as steady as a player can be. He doesn’t get better or worse he’s just what he is. Bob I have never heard of your opinion since lbj went to Miami. I’ve agreed with you about thhe pursuit of lbj so what’s your feelings?

I love the optimism but can I give a different perspective. If we wasn’t gunning for Lebron for the last 2 yrs worth of worthless bball and we continued with cap clearing moves to come up with a team that we have now would you still be excited? Imo no Knick fan would be. We ould be burning MSG into the ground or booing Jimmy Dolan at every band event he has. When you look at the East as it is now and just the East alone we are right there with the Cavs a team of complimentary players but no real Superstar. Amare is a beast but alone just like Ewing you can double or triple team the ball out of his hands and then its up to Gallo, Chandler, Td, Felton, the GSW players to make it happen and how confident are we with that happening?

Landry Fields will be the SURPRISE of the season!!!!! The kid will start at SG and become a big part of our future!!! Brandon Roy type but taller!!!

Toney douglas shouldn’t even be put in the sentence with Charlie Ward! Well not yet atleast all real knick fans know that! Hopefully he has Heart like charlie did! Charlie wasn’t anything speacial be few have the heart and hustle that Ward had ! When TD blocks the hell out of dwight howard like charlie did to rik smits then we can compare those two! Lol

Douglas is a better player than Charlie Ward ever was. Better shooter, better defender, better scorer.

I like TD, but he is NOT a PG, and this team is in a lot of trouble if Felton gets injured. TD just doesn’t have the court vision to run the point, and he isn’t a good passer. He is much better at playing off the ball. Basically, he is a 6-1 shooting guard.

@onemoretime! No way in hell TD is better than ward! Not yet atleast like I said! He is still young and can be better but wtf u been smoking to say that! He’s not even close right now! U probrably didn’t watch the knicks back then and TD doesn’t have that 3pter charlie did and maybe never will

+1 … TD couldn’t shine ward’s shoes at this point in his career.

Toney still has a long way to go imo. He has a great attitude and work ethic so he should be fine. He has to improve running the offense and also he has to stop gambling so much on defense.

He’s been getting torched throughout summer league because he tries to steal every pass and dribble and ends up just missing and getting beat. Really has to improve on that.

As it is now, he’s really just a backup 6’1 shooting guard. I expect him to keep improving though. It is a little troublesome that Landry Fields did twice the job running the point yesterday than Douglas did.

Tony Douglas, at this stage of his career, is better than Charlie Ward was.

+1 Jingo. I am certainly glad with the form that “Plan B” ended up taking. We didn’t get Lebron, but walked away with an all-star and top young talent and solid starting pg, all while maintaining the all-important cap flexibility.

Good stuff from Walsh. I look forward to seeing how this year plays out.

One NBA executive who deals extensively with Europe credited the Knicks for showing the guts to sign 7-foot-1 Russian center Timofey Mozgov, saying he would be a mid first-round pick had he been in June’s draft.

The executive said he likely would have gone between 15 and 25.

“He was No. 1 on my list for European free agents,” the executive said. “His upside is unbelievable. He’s bouncy. He needs to get stronger, learn the NBA game and terminology. It’s a no-brainer. The way you got to look at him is they drafted him a couple of years ago, held him over there and now they bring him back.

Just some more information about Mosgov.

U think so tommy damn I really hope he ends up being like ward ! Ward was pretty clutch too he hit a lot of critical 3′s in the playoffs! Damn that was back when we made the playoffs every year lol do u know when the schedule comes out? I def getting tiks when the heat come to town! Can’t wait to see amare destroy bosh!

The only thing I see better than Ward about Douglas so far is his speed (which helps him get the edge defensively), I think Ward was smarter.

Beyond that their games are very similar at this point in their respective careers imho.

Toney Doulgas is a better shooting guard than Charlie Ward ever was.

TD couldn’t start over Chris Duhon and Charlie Ward was far superior to Duhon, so what’s that tell ya? I think Toney Douglas would be a good guard in a triangle offense, like Derek Fisher. Whether he can survive as a combo guard in D’Antoni’s system is yet to be seen. Ward had a lengthy NBA career, even if not a spectacular one.

TD leads the summer league in steels. I always thought he had the game to be near the top of the league in steels with sufficient PT.

That had nothing to do with this charlie ward argument, i was just saying.

c’mon tommy. Ward was a natural PG with very good instincts. TD has no clue when it comes to running a team which is somewhat alarming considering that he is not a kid anymore.

I like his desire but I don’t see much of a future for him beyond limited time off the bench. he can shoot though, so he’ll always have a place in MD’s system.

Can someone give me an example of a 24yo player who was such a poor passer and worked himself into a legitimate point guard with court vision?

Maybe there is a guy who has drafted the blueprint for Toney to follow and can give Knick fans some hope?

douglas is a backup combo guard…. he is what he is. he will come off the bench and score and defend. hes not a pure pg and will never be. knicks should look to add another veteran pg on the minumum like rafer imo. i like douglas, but he is what he is.

I was surprised by TD’s defense and ability to eat up lazy passes. What I really like most is the overall attitude of this squad and can easily see them out working other teams once the season gets going. Also, Fields with every game looks more and more like a strong late pick. Yo, everyone have a great weekend!

HAHA i don’t think he is supposed to become a true PG. Why can’t he just be a good combo guard off the bench like barbosa was, or like nate with a brain? After all, we bought him for 3 million dollars.

I don’t expect him to become our lead guard at any point, but he can defend, shoot the lights out, and handle the ball when he needs to.

That being said, i don’t see a problem with him being our backup PG, but it would be nice to have some insurance, incase felton gets injured or something.

Good enough to help take up to the finals even thought we did lose

BTW fields definitely looks like an NBA rotation player. he should make it based on smarts and hustle alone.he is one of those rare 2nd rounders that actually amounts to something. great pick up.

we havn’t had a chance to see much of his floater in SL which seems to be his goto move. Probably because SL games are played in the paint and there is no room to operate without getting hacked.

Are we talking about the same Charlie Ward? The Charlie Ward who never averaged higher than 8.7 pts in a season or 5.7 asst? The same Charlie Ward who played ole defense and never could win the starting job? I saw Charlie Ward play and this revisionist history is driving me crazy. Listening to some of you guys you’d think Ward was an all star borderline hall of famer. To say he is better than Douglas is doing Tony a terrible disservice.

over Wilson Chandler? Billy Walker? I mean Landry is great so far, but he cant start in the NBA his rookie season

Billups was a late bloomer in the league. Not that you can ever compare him to TD. Billups always had the potential and the talent.

I Bet You Boston would kill for Toney as a backup.
No Respect Around Here

If u appreciate HEART! U like charlie ward! That’s why we speak highly of him! Come on now ! When playoff time came around charlie was the man! In the season ur right

“Second generation billionaires tend to be this way. But we have some really great young talent to look forward to seeing develop.”

Agree with your whole post but two things. One, the above quote is the reason it may be diffiuclt to attract FAs if all else is even. He is a well known bafoon.

Two, we have to start doing better in the draft. I like the summer we have had after the draft, but we won’t truly be a contender until we start drafting better. IMO we need a GM to help accomplish that.

As soon as Mosgov grows a mustache, he will look like this……

https://secure1.giganetmall.com/secureforms/richardkiel/HappyGilmore2.jpg

Toney Douglas is a nate, barbosa type of player but I compare him to the microwave vinnie johnson. If we had Melo and Stat holding it down on the starting 5 then when they need a breather a TD with Gallo and Chandler can score at will without a big drop off. If TD focuses on passing then his biggest skill which is scoring would be affected.

D’Antoni is not a big fan of rookies. It is highly unlikely Fields starts or gets major minutes at SG this season.

Better scorer yes. Better defender is questionable. Charlie was a decent shooter too.

Douglas hasn’t proven anything to me yet. Not really sure why you guys all think Tony Douglas is that good. I mean some of you were saying he is a better player than Brandon Jennings?

Tony Douglas by year four, if he can become more of a playmaker and distributer, will be a good player. A nice sixth man.

I think Walsh envisioned Rautins filling in as a backup PG. But he hasn’t look that good to me. Knicks really need a pure backup PG. A veteran preferably but there is a bigger hole at starting SG. We basically keep acquire forwards at the expense of PGs and SGs.

I like the fact that we got some guys who can protect the basket. Jordan, Mosgov, and Turiaf will hopefully finally address our shotblocking needs. We lost so many games over the past 2 years because the paint was so open. Now we needs some PGs that will keep the ball moving and cut down on our turnovers (which we did better at last year).

Those are the little things (shotblocking, protecting the ball, late game management) that will be the difference between being a 32 win team to a 40 win team.

Welcome back TD.

I don’t think TD is as smart (moving without the ball, being at the right spot in the offense) or as good as protecting the ball as Fish. But I agree in a few years he could be a PG in the triangle.

I remember when Ron Harper, who I did not see as a PG at all, ran the PG in the triangle. If he could do it, a guy like Toney Douglas certainely could as well.

No room for Fields on the roster right now. We still need a SG and backup PG. I like Fields though. May not matter anyway with D’Antoni’s tight rotation. Even if he makes the team he won’t play until near the end of the season anyway.

Tony Douglas isn’t an all-star or hall of famer either. I agree that Charlie wasn’t all that great but what has Tony Douglas done? He can’t even run offensive sets for a whole quarter.

Citing Charlie Ward’s stats is meaningless. Stats weren’t his game. He was a fearless leader and a very good defender.

Ole defense? Are you sure you saw Charlie Ward play?

Uh oh. Watching the Knicks summer league game against Det and D’Antoni just said Randolph can play anything from the 2 to the 5. Man isn’t thinking about defense at all.

I definitely saw Charlie Ward play and he was not a good on the ball defender. About the best thing he did on defense was take charges and get into the passing lane. He wasn’t quick enough or athletic enough to stay in front of his man. He was also a mediocre ball handler who always went to his right. He didn’t run the break particularly well and had trouble getting his own shot; rarely if ever shooting off the dribble. He never even nailed down the starting job for any length of time so for you guys to sing his praises as if he was some kind of great player is highly misleading.

Nope never said he was great. He was far from.

“He wasn’t quick enough or athletic enough to stay in front of his man.”

Don’t agree with this either. The Knicks played a ton of man to man defense and the only reason Ward got any playing time was his ability to stick with his man. It cetainely wasn’t for his offense.

What do you guys think about signing Rafer Alston as a backup PG. Honestly, I would rather have him start than TD if Felton got injured. Plus, he would probably sign for close to the vet minimum, would understand his role, and could bring some veteran leadership to this team.

Watching Tony Douglas play defense is one of my favorite things. Watching him try to run the offense is painful. The commenter that said he was made for the triangle was right, because he can’t run an offense. But Billups became a pg, so I guess it can happen..

lol @ you guys

I think Charlie’s prime began when he started hitting that 3 point shot like it was money in the bank. 98-99 he started to really put it together.

Better defender? If you count sheer toughness into your defense definition, you’re kinda buggin at this point to make that claim. Charlie really developed into a consistent 3 point threat, remains to be seen if T-doug can do that. Prob tho

“Toney is going to be a competitor,” D’Antoni concluded.

This is all Mike D wants. 110% effort. This is why Darko, Eddy, Nate and Hughes were all banished last year.

I agree Tommy. Charlie didn’t really have a “game at that point, he was just a great athlete. Charlie didn’t really get meaningful playing time till the 96-97 season if I remember correctly. TD’s gonna get a chacne to play in every game in second season.

I will say this tho, I hope TD could become half the rebounder Charlie Ward was for a PG. Dude was phenomenal rebounding PG for his size, even tho the stats don’t indicate it anything spectacular.

Billups is a pretty good example.

I don’t expect TD to reach that level but I think he’s talented enough to grow as a leader and a basketball player to be a legit NBA point guard. And I’m not even a Toney Douglas fan.

Thats a good question HaS. Not many I can think of. A guy like Alvin Williams comes to mind. He was kind of a undersized SG type with good size as a PG who was a sub par passer at Villanova and the NBA until he finally put it together in 2000. He was a little bit older than TD, but he wound up turning into a legit PG when he hit his prime years.

The odds are not in TD’s favor tho.

Alvin avg’d about 5+ assists during his 3-4 year prime years.

Never does.

“This is all Mike D wants. 110% effort.”

That’s BS.

Lee never competed on defense, 0 effort at all and Harrington almost never did, but those two guys got the lion’s share of minutes every night.

TD will never be better than Charlie Ward! Why? Because TD shoot to damn much rather than getting his players involved into the offense as we all can see in the summer league games. Somebody need to tell TD that he is NOT a 2! TD needs to start thinking that need to become a 1! His job is to learn how to become a playmaker and the only way to learn to do that is not by playing one on one!

Eh, Alvin WIlliams I guess is a decent example. I think he was more inconsistent than just an all around poor passer, which is how Toney has looked. However, let’s say he is the blueprint, he had a relatively short NBA career and not many at a high level. That’s not going to give some of us Knicks fans hope lol.

I think Toney’s niche will be his defense, once he learns the nuances of NBA defenses and learns when to pressure, gamble and when not to he will be an excellent defender. Beyond that he needs to work on finishing stronger amongst the trees and work on knocking down that pull up when he can’t make it all the way to the cup.

If he can come off the bench and provide and explosive scoring punch, tough defense and ball handling up the court he’ll be great in a year or two as long as there are other playmakers on the floor with him.

azubuike had a very serious tendon operation.lets see if the surgery was a success before saying he’ll have a very good season.If it werent for the injury,i dont think GS would’ve traded him

Inconsistencies are what separate the bad players and there aspects from the good. Its what indicates the deficiencies in players games. In TD’s case, I don’t think he’s as bad a passer as you think he is, I just think its something he’s not used to doing that much.

He just needs learn to play with and without the ball when he’s not the primary offensive option. Thats what I think he struggles with more than just the passing. He’s used to passing when he has no choice but to like in college, and in this offense he needs to be an orchestrator out there at all times.

Alvin Williams came to mind because he eventually did get the PG position and ultimately played it very well. With that being said, I still think he was better play maker naturally than TD, and his handle was whole lot better.

TD also has to improve his play making abilities like Alvin because he’s not going to be asked to do what he does best on the regular, and thats score.

Alvin was primarily a slasher who could post up little guards in the same way that TD uses his knack for coming off screens to make buckets. Both have have tendencies ingrained in them, but Alvin albeit a somewhat short prime career, really put it together for about 4 seasons and became an very efficient passer and PG.

Thank god TD can only get better.

This excites me more than Douglas!

True, but we do know D’Antoni has contradicted himself in the past.

I agree we’ve drafted poorly. But maybe we have a some diamonds in the rough with the Russian and Fields. Randolph is as good as a draft pick. And TD was a nice pick.

I am just happy to be where we are. Forget the last two years, the last 12 have been garbage. I knew this Lebron thing was risky business, but to me for the most part it was a worthwhile risk.

I think if they land a solid GM then the lure of NYC and D’Antoni’s system will trump Dolan in the eyes of FAs.

I think overall TD had a nice SL and showed progression playing in more of a PG role. He was clearly the leader of the team in SL. Take it for what it’s worth since it is SL but in my eyes he showed improvement playing the position. Is he ready to step in for a prolonged period there if Felton were to get hurt? Hells no. But we just need to hope that doesn’t happen. He’s more than adequate as a backup though. I think he’s a heck of a bench player…

I actually think from what I’ve seen that TD would be awesome in the triangle.

I think TD is much more talented. Much more developed scorer. Ward’s big advantage was that he had a much better understaning of playing PG than TD at this point. But overall TD is the much bigger talent…