We’ve talked about this a lot in terms of flaws in Mike D”Antoni’s system. His tendency is to play players a ton of minutes by using a short rotation. Now, every coach 
shortens their rotation at some point during the season, mostly during the playoffs or for must-win games choosing to lean on their stars, but I agree it can’t be for a full season.
Alvin Gentry was actually an exception to that rule this past season. Frankly, had Ron Artest not made a miracle put back (or had someone on the Suns put a body on him, whichever way you want to look at it) in a critical Game 5 at Staples Center, along with a legendary Kobe performance in Game 6, the Suns may have represented the Western Conference in the NBA Finals.
Gentry would use 9 or 10 players and lean on a young bench to keep the pace going that Steve Nash creates, but with seemingly more defensive-minded players. In fairness to D’Antoni, guys like Jared Dudley and even Robin Lopez are sharp players he didn’t have to lean on off the bench.
D’Antoni has the chance to do so this season because he has a young group of players, and to waste that athleticism would be a shame. This is not the veteran-dominated roster that he’s had here or in Phoenix.
I’d start Felton, eventually Azubuike, Gallinari, Turiaf and Amar’e, then be really young and athletic off the bench with Douglas, Walker, Chandler, Randolph and, for about 10 minutes per if he’s ready, Mozgov. Yes, it’s early but you get the idea.
Again, there will be days when the bench players are flat, the Suns had that issue on the road, especially in the playoffs, but if you’re on the second unit your focus would be to maintain pace and focus on defense. And ultimately, starters get starts minutes.
It worked well enough in Phoenix this year, and it’s a model that I would like to see D’Antoni adjust to more this season.
What do you guys think?
“Frankly, had Ron Artest not made a miracle put back (or had someone on the Suns put a body on him, whichever way you want to look at it) in a critical Game 5 at Staples Center,”
Now,isn’t it strange that OKC lost game 6 of that serie on exactly the same play. Except that time it was gasol doing the put back. Don’t you think it might at least be semi intentional.
When Kobe goes into isolation into that right corner, the other lakers have a pretty good idea where the ball might bounce on a miss. I suspect they’ve seen happen more than a few times.
I’s not about MD’s rotation that much. It’s about him getting the most out of his players and not letting his ego get in the way. The major difference between Gentry and D’Antoni is humility. MD is notorius for playing head games with his players. If he starts this crap with any of the new guys it will backfire and he will lose the team.
He’s not even that good a coach and will probably be gone after this season.
+1
I mean, when dealing with a similar roster in Phoenix, I don’t remember D’Antoni being accused of playing head games. Amare seemed to like him enough to want to come back and play with him.
after their breakfast meeting to “Clear the air”
im sure a full max contract didnt have anything to do with it.
A max contract that he probably could have got from the Nets and the Bulls.
When you can chose your team, if you played under a coach who played games with you, you wouldn’t sign right up to play with him again.
The only players I ever hear talk badly about the coach are the lazy players jabbing on their way out.
It just seems to me that the coach doesn’t like lazy players who don’t hustle, practice, and put in their best effort. I don’t like them either and I don’t need guys like Larry Hughes on my team.
It’s just funny that everyone during the season was saying “the coach needs to make players accountable for their mistakes”, and then when he does with consequences (see: Nate), everyone jumps on his back and says he’s messing with their heads and playing games.
A week ago on here a bunch of guys were praising Larry Brown – the guy is notorious for bad player relations, public call outs, and head games. He always wants his guys, and when he gets them, he wins.
When D’Antoni had his guys in Phoenix, he won. You can’t debate that. The guy won 60 games twice, two or three trips to the conference finals, and the Suns were generally regarded as a Western Conference powerhouse.
To say that he isn’t a winner because he didn’t win a championship is ridiculous. During the same period of time D’Antoni was coaching, Jeff Van Gundy – Mr. Defense and TKB favorite, had three first round exits and missed the playoffs once while coaching a very solid Rockets team.
I’m ranting, but I just dont understand how some posters here don’t even consider D’Antoni a real coach when he’s had several highly successful years, while pining for other coaches and different styles of play that weren’t neccessarily successful.
Nice point JustinCharles. Finally someone posting with some sense.
I agree with spreading the minutes across the bench this year. Especially with amare’s uninsured knees. Even if though he started all games after the surgery …it still wouldnt hurt to give him some rest and develop the youngs at the same time.
IMO though, I’d start chandler at the two and have it “his job to lose”. I know he isnt the shooter we expect at that spot and he isnt a traditional 2. But what position to we have the prototypical player at besides pg? I wouldnt start walker over chandler, nor buike b/c he is still recovering from injury. Felton had a good % from beyond the arc last year.. and gallo, well we all know he has range for days.. so that gives more reason to let chandler have the sg spot. If he shows inconsistency then at least his time their has bought buike time to recover and then the positional battle begins with walker/will/buike.
I like the idea of having a second unit tho. athletic, young, but good defensively. Dont forget about Curry too… *i have no reason to believe the quote from mosgovs agent*
+1 on giving Chandler the 2 spot. Exactly what I was thinking regarding Buike.
well I think that’s where Tommy was going with “eventually Azubuike” since he may not be 100% to start the season, barring any trades, Chandler prolly will go into the season as the starter.
Whatever works TommyDee I’m tried of loosing
I agree it’s good basketball to spread the minutes during a long season. In addition, there’s very likely to be a trade after 12/15, so we got to showcase some players as well as get potential replacements ready to step up.
Still, I don’t know if Mike will change.
I like D’Antoni, but he seems to be a pretty stubborn dude. Maybe having the pressure to win this yr will motivate a few changes, like this one. I just wouldn’t bank on it.
Yep. I agree with Tommy that minutes should be spread, young guys should get some burn, and we should have a 9-10 man rotation.
I agree with Vin that it is very doubtful D’Antoni will do that
Phil Weber during a summer league interview with Walt Frazier and I forget the other announcers name, said they were looking to expand their rotation to a 10-man.
bottom line is this suns were robbed vs the spurs in 07 and the suns were robbed last vs the lakers and their paid off refs. high scoring basketball works and has worked since the beginning of proball. only the last decade the game has been slowed to a halt by control freak coaches who just could care less about fans being entertained.
will coach d use the same ideas gentry used last year? I dont how it was done because nash and grant are old and they needed bench players. I thing dantoni has to use a bench its just common sense to keep players fresh and not abise them. truaif, kalena and randolph are ALL coming off injuries so they have to start slow about 24 minutes a game each for a while so coach d will have to go 10 deep and he has no choice.
I agree with using 10 deep. As the season winds down we’ll be able to see who is producing and the bench can shorten as playoffs near. I’ll be annoyed if we never get to see Mozgov. I’m also tired of reading comments about playing Curry. Yo Son actually called him the best low-post scoring threat in the league. What a joke. He should get no minutes. We banked 5 years on the guy, and he’s done nothing but damage the franchise.
While I got excited last year by Walker, his performance in the summer league scared me. As of now, we do have to start Chandler, but when Azubuike heals, I bet he becomes our starting 2. Maybe Fields one day?
We’d better see a lot of Randolph too. If he doesn’t play our young talent, and take advantage of the natural defensive ability of these players, then it’s time to go.
I agree that the young players need to get some burn. If he doesn’t play them he’s gonna kill his chances to be taken seriously as a coach ever again. It just so happens his whole team is young amare being the oldest player on the team. So he kinda has no choice but to play the youngsters. I’m very excited to see what this team can be and also very optimistic because if he uses this team right their are a lot of mismatches he can create on a nightly basis. Some may not agree, but its true. Having a yound team also helps over the course of a long season. That being said walker should’ve dominated summer league and it is a bit scary to think that he might not be as good as we all hoped, but at the same time his salary is less than a million so no big deal to move if need be. Landy fields should make the team but probably will only get spot minutes the first 20+ games.
Curry and walker will probably not be on the team next year. My guess is they won’t and as long as azubuike is healthy he will have a spot on this team because the dude can ball. This team will shock a lot of people this year and I hope they make all these sports anaylist who say we are not better than last year eat crow.
First he has to see who his starters will be and then once that happens, there has to be a ten man rotation to start the season. Then you go to a 9 man rotation to start the second half and first round of playoffs. If you manage to get past the first round then you go with a 8 man roation because your competition just got a lot tougher. Its a model that’s been used forever and it works. I do agree with trlove about conrtol freak coaches, but that kind of ball has been around since the beginning. Think back before the 24 second shot clock, you had 18 to 13 final scores. But fast pace games are way more exciting magics lakers, nash’s suns, kidd’s nets and doug moe’s nuggets. They were all pretty good to watch.
I agree.
What better way to implement his ssol system???
By keeping guys legs fresh with a deep rotation(8-11guys). Fresh legs lead to hustle plays, and tough defense which leads to block shots and steals that will lead to hella fast breaks.
starters:
FELTON/AZUBUIKE/GALLO/AMARE/TURIAF
BENCH ROTATION:
DOUGLAS/RANDOLPH/CHANDLER/WALKER/FIELDS/MUSGOV
The Knicks roster is very injury prone, the three guys from Golden State all come of injuries, Chandler did not stay healthy the last two seasons and Amar’e has potential knee issues and a lot of mileage.
For that reason alone Knicks need a big rotation, players need to be ready to play come the time they are needed because other players are not available.
Yea I hope his ego saw the tweaks that worked for his old squad. I just want to be respected and not looked as some team’s next W.
ALl the new guys from GS are coming off injuries
The more who can contribute the merrier. MDA has to find that sweet spot for his rotation, which maximizes team performance, freshness, and keeps players happy and hungry. As some have pointed out, you can always tighten the rotation during the playoffs.
how can you already pencil in azubuike in the 2.
you haven’t seen him play.
is he still recovering come october?
how can you pencil in turiaf as the 5.
he has never been a starter in the nba.
let’s be real about the risks going into this year.
sure your concept sounds great and i agree that md’a must expand his bench and get contributions from all players, especially b4 playoffs.
but don’t put the cart b4 the horse.
we don’t know what we have yet, which is why the off-season can’t be calld an A.
but we hope things are looking up.
and we’re excited to see felton amar’e and hopefully other young players perform.
Depth is a strength of this Knick team in my opinion, and a good coach would take advantage of that. I think Dantoni is a good coach so I’m expecting him to take advantage of that.
i think this “coach” is too stubborn to expand the roation to 10 like he should..
he’s continue his 7 players or less philosophy until he is shown the door..
i’d like to see him employ another Gentry tweak and use a more traditional defensive center.. not expecting to see it either.
When you write “coach” are you implying that Mike D’Antoni is in fact not a coach? I’m confused. You make it seem like he’s an imposter.
no shots.. if you’ve been reading this site for more than a few months you know why he is referred to that way..
but why not comment on the statement presented rather than harping on that?
Hey Big, just curious say the Knicks start off, have a 42-45 win season and get a 6 or 7 seed. Would you then change your tune on D’A a little? Or are you completely turned off, there is no coming back?
There was not really much to work with. I mean you have unproven rookies to play, no superstar/ quality vet leader, low IQ basketball players on a last year contract, and veterans with extreme egos.
The way I look at it is you play the rookies you will lose more games. Creating more of a buzz on how this coach cannot win. Please do not tell me otherwise lol (Trust NY media finds a way). If you expand the rotation with the roster we had for the previous 2 years that would have created more of a larger headache or about the same. Al and Hughes complaining why they are not getting minute over the rookies. The rookies would have accepted it and put their time in and played. Regardless of that situation their time has come 2010-2011 season.
The coach has stated in interviews it is not just 7 seconds or less. He stresses keep the ball in transition, keep the ball moving, and put emphasis on the pick and roll. I really do not agree his views on the mid range game but he did say he will look into as he evaluates his players who can hoot a mid range shot. Playing to your players strengths. I think we should run screens for Wilson Chandler…he has a solid mid range J.
It is obvious when we compare the two teams he coached…in one team he had good players in the other he had mediocre players. Results show you need to give the coach good quality player to win games.
I really do not see many traditional centers in the league that we are head over heals in free agency. We could have drafted them but we still would have lost several games without a team around them (Brook Lopez for the 12 win they achieved in NJ-overrated in my opinion). Sometimes big men nowadays do not work out…Kwame Brown, Greg Oden, Hasheem Thabeet or Patrick O’Bryant several more… I think we have to accept that the game has changed (for better or for worse is the debate) and we all should know that. I still wish we can rewind time and see how the old knicks team played but yea.
Yea man seriously. It is pretty juvenile referring to him as the “coach” in every single comment and I know you are a middle aged man. The guy is coaching in the NBA as well as on the bench for the United States Team. Like him or not he is a coach and a better one than you would ever be. No disrespect but get over it “Big”.
I think Dantoni is a good coach so I’m expecting him to take advantage of that. Wow I never saw anybody but Donnie think he is a good coach?
He has not shown me he is a good coach, he has shown in Phoenix with Nash running the helm his 7sol can put up points. As a Knick coach he has not shown me anything but stubborness and mistakes in crucial game time situations. BUT dont get me wrong I want to see him succeed as long as he coaches the Knicks
i’d like to see him employ another Gentry tweak and use a more traditional defensive center.. not expecting to see it either.
Concur 100 times and more!!
Yup, we can all say we hope D’Antoni hires a defensive assistant, plays a real big at center, or expands the rotation, but given how he’s approached the past two years (when we had nothing to lose), it’s obvious D’Antoni has too much ego to tweak his system. I’d love to be proven wrong though.
I agree that if you have the talent, it’s not smart to run a short rotation, but lets not act like it can’t be successful.
When Phoenix had a weak bench in 05 – Steven Hunter, Barbosa, Casey Jacobson, Bo Outlaw, Lampe – he ran a 7 or 8 man rotation – usually playing Hunter, Jacobson, and Barbosa in very limited minutes – and won 62 games and went to the Conference Finals.
The next year Amare was injured and they again generally used an 7 or 8 man rotation, usually playing Eddie House, Barbosa, and James Jones off the bench. They still won 54 games and went to the conference finals.
The next year, they won another 61 games again rocking a 7 or 8 man bench – Barbosa, Jones, and Kurt Thomas or Boris Diaw depending on injuries.
The truth is, they never had a deep bench, there best players were always there starters, and they gave their bench guys who could fit the system and contribute – Barbosa, House, Jones, Diaw – minutes when neccessary. He didn’t force Jake Voshkul into the lineup just to have a defensive center because Jake Voshkul sucks.
To be fair, Gentry had a much deeper team. Frye/Lopez, Dragic, Dudley, Amudson, Barbosa…they are just better players.
I think this year, we are a little deeper, but I’d like to see one real shooter off the bench who could come in and just mess with the other team. Frye, House, and James Jones all filled that role in Phoenix.
These Knicks should be deeper than the last two years…I think they’ll eventually settle into a 9 man rotation. I think eventually one will be chosen about Walker and Chandler, Douglas will get the Barbosa role, Randolph will be the big, and Mozgov will eventually spell the center.
agreed. Dantoni was often a victim of the legendary Rob Sarver cheapness. That guy often had championship-caliber talent and was still more concerned with cutting costs and avoiding the luxury tax than winning. One of the worst owners in the league imo.
I know, people seem to forget things like, prior to D’Antoni’s 62 win 2004-2005 season, the Suns sold the #7 pick which ended up being Luol Deng, to the Bulls for just straight cash. A lottery pick. For cash.
D’Antoni should follow Gentry’s “tweaks” because…
(a)Gentry’s Suns won fewer games than did D’Antoni’s? (b)Gentry’s Suns ranked lower on offense than did D’Antoni’s? Or, perhaps, (c)Gentry’s Suns also ranked lower defensively than did D’Antoni’s?
I’m not feeling it, to tell the truth. D’Antoni should follow Gentry even though Gentry was manifestly less successful with the Suns than Mike was. Don’t get that.
In regards to (a): The Suns were supposed to be a fringe playoff team, or miss the playoffs completely – that’s why people are impressed with how well Gentry’s tweaks worked. Those who say that Gentry had better bench players than D’Antoni were not saying this at the beginning of the season.
In regards to (c): Comparing the season team defensive stats for Gentry’s and D’Antoni’s Suns is misleading, as the Suns were a completely different team post-all star break. Look at the Suns defensive stats post all-star break – their opp FG % was 43.9% during that span. In 9 of these games, they held opponents below 40%. THAT’s why people were saying the Suns are playing better defense then they ever have under D’Antoni.
SOURCE: http://blog.oregonlive.com/behindblazersbeat/2010/04/forget_offense_the_phoenix_sun.html
And there you have it.
Agreed. But, problem is Mozgov and Walker are huge question marks.
For the Knicks rotation to go 10 deep they need to sign 2 more vets, a SG (preferably one with PG skills as injury insurance) and a PF/C.
I’d look at Flip Murray and Kwame Brown for the vet’s min.
Flip is instant offense and van run a ballclub in a pinch. Kwame is much maligned but he’s a big body with soft hands. He is also an underrated passer in the high post (thanks to time in Jax’s triangle).
Moreover, both guys bring playoff experience to a team lacking it.
Mozgov is a big question mark. As for Walker…I really do not think he is that big of a ?
He already played 27 games as a Knick and averaged 11.9 ppg, 3.1rpg, and 1.4apg. I doubt that we are asking him to put huge numbers but to at least keep the same production for 60 games.
During summer league his timing looked way off. It’s hard to adjust to a certain weight 25lbs a lot. Your timing will be off. I am kind of worried Chandler’s timing will be off. He just came off surgery and added muscle to his body. This can lead to an injury in his ankles. Hopefully he is adjusting to his weight gain in a basketball setting.
Last 2 seasons did not count. The roster was in flux with rent-a players and dead wood and no center and we have no idea what D’A will do with a decent young roster now. I’d imagine he will play 9 or 10 guys for a few months to see who gels. Judging D’A's tendencies based on the last 2 yrs doesn’t make sense. He did ride his best players in Phx and was hugely successful, but wasn’t his bench thin? Calling him names and assuming he will be stubborn is premature. But he deserves all the criticism for not knowing how to teach defense like a Knick team must play, but the new guys are better at D than than the old guys. I think this team will be in the top 5 for offense and bottom 5 for defense because Amar’e is no true center and we don’t know if Turiaf can stay healthy and he has never been a reliable starter with big minutes. If Azu can get back to 100% I think he is far better suited to be the 2 guard than Will. With both of them they don’t need Rudy.
“Last 2 seasons did not count.”
save that BS……post not even worth reading after your first line(darn sure didn’t)……utter ridiculousness on here..
Tribute to Yo Son
I’d rather keep Ill Will than go after Rudy, Ill can chap my a$$ with his nonchalant demeanor and low bball IQ and lack of court awareness BUT what has Rudy done? He had a pretty good Olympics vs USA and a dunk on D How, how was his Portland numbers and years. Rubio looked pretty good vs USA but his Euro numbers arent impressive.
BUT what has Rudy done?
A anwer I found to my question
Two seasons ago, Fernandez made 159 3-pointers, an NBA rookie record. A first-round pick by the Suns in 2007, he averaged 8.1 points in 23 minutes per game last season.
On the topic of Rudy Fernandez, first round pick of the Suns – he was traded, along with rotation player James Jones, to the Blazers for…wait for it……cash.
I’m still debating in my head whether or not Rudy is a better fit for the team than Chandler. It really comes down to Chandler’s defense vs. Rudy’s outside shot.
hmm, I don’t know. I think Gentry was on the right track by using his bench the way he did, but people tend to forget that Dantoni never really had a bench in PHX because Sarver was too busy cutting costs every year.
I think in some ways Gentry did a much better job than Dantoni, and in others he did a worse job. Definitely in terms of developing a bench and getting along with Amare, but I really don’t see much of a difference other wise. And I thought at times Gentry stuck with the bench for far too long and it cost the Suns a few games.
Believe it or not, I still say Dantoni did a better job defensively with those PHX teams considering the talent they had, and he did a much better job harnessing Barbosa and when they had Diaw and Bell he also did a very good job with them.
“What do you guys think?”
I think ….no I know your starting line is trash…and not with elaborating on…..
uh oh that’s ‘Diet Cola’ talk…umm ‘lmao lmao’..’diet cola’..
I also do not know what in the world you are saying.
I think you can have short rotations in the playoffs. The Knicks have at least 9-10 players who are NBA-ready, I think Mike D’Antoni should extend the rotation during the regular season.
And I believe that Mike D’Antoni would love to have Robin Lopez and Jared Dudley because they fit in his system. Mike D’Antoni’s never had the chance to coach an athletic and skilled center like Robin Lopez, and Jared Dudley’s a very good defender who can knock down open jumpshots. The only Alvin Gentry guy who wouldn’t play for Mike D’Antoni is probably Lou Amundson.
Alvin Gentry has made some adjustments Mike D’Antoni should take inspiration from. I think he needs to extend the rotation during the regular season and he needs to play Ronny Turiaf at center. But Mike D’Antoni’s Suns were clearly better than Alvin Gentry’s Suns.
I have been reading this blog for three years and i think it (along with alan hahn) is the best source for knicks info. I think this knick team will be the best since 1989 an certainly best since i have been season tix holder (~2004). Also, I think this entry is the best i have read in a long time from Xs and Os perspective. regarding tweaking the system and using a freakily athletic second team could give the knicks the best bench in nba. How many teams can bring the talent and pace of douglas, walker, chandler, randolph and (lets cross our fingers) Mosgov off the bench?
Tommy’s way more knowledgable than Hahn in my opinion.
The Knicks have the “best bench in the NBA” now?
Wow.
“I think this knick team will be the best since 1989″
…………………
maybe you mint the most exciting ….yeah that’s it..plz let that be what you mint…..ay yoooooo……
One thing is for sure, Gentry used the zone far more effectively than MD….hahahah.
All I have to contribute to this discussion is that Gentry is a much better coach than Mike D’Antoni. His player rotations and understanding of when to, and when not to put in players last year was not only better than D’Antoni, but perhaps the best in the league. He had complete control of every player on the roster and he got the most out of each and every one of them.
This season will be a good test for D’Antoni. In his defense, D’Antoni never had as talented and exciting a bench as what Gentry had last season. But now I think the Knicks have a bench that is at least as talented as the one the Suns had last year. D’Antoni must play at least 10 of his players. He must.
I guess 2 60+ wins seasons in 4 years is not enough.
how about 70 wins? would that make him a good coach?