Ford: Hornets, Rockets, Pacers & Nets Working on 4-team Deal

I saw that, kind of shocked, in essense New Orleans would be trading Collison for Trevor Ariza, I thought Collison would have more trade value than that. Regardless, if NO trades Collison obviously they makes it less likely they’ll move Paul

and Indiana gets Collison/Posey for troy Murphy’s expiring contract????

Good, now the Knicks can focus strictly on getting the best pure scorer in the league.

Paul is good but I’m glad he’s staying in NO.

are you forgetting about Kobe Bryant? D Wade?

Melo is just a BETTER version of Al Harrington.

NO wow at least they’ll be getting Trevor Ariza

kevin durant is the best scorer in the league. followed by melo, kobe, wade.

Actually, Melo might be harder to D-up than anyone in the game. He’s up there.

But if CP3 IS in fact off the market I’d take a Better Al Harrington ..

i would not give up much more than Chnadler,Curry and some other pieces for him though. — Ill toss in some future first rounders too..

no Gallo. No AR.

Wow, Hornets are really going to take on Ariza and the almost $30 million left on his deal over the next 4 years.
I find it interesting that they would not only give up Collison (an up and coming talent) they would also take on more money for more years.
Not so sure about this deal for the Hornets.

melo couldnt hold Kobe’s jock.

+1

Exactly, what I’m saying too.

I think this speaks volumes about Paul. This was obviously driven by the player so that the team would be forced to give up leverage in negotiations.

No way that NO gives up Collison for this unless the pressure was losing a bigger piece.

The team did it to make the star happy by bringing in players etc. CP3 is happy because now the team is committed to him and they can’t see him walking without going through a brutal rebuilding without a quality point.

There is a skunk in NO.

It’s a move they had to make. If they’re intent on keeping Paul, having a great backup pg doesn’t help them. Instead they get a really solid swingman that improves their team dramatically imo.

A lineup of Paul-Thornton-Ariza-West-Okafor is not bad at all. They could surprise a lot of people. I like the trade for them honestly, if they are set on trying to keep CP3.

ive thought the same thing about melo/harrington for a while. but could not bring myself to say it.

i hope you and i are wrong, because Melo is the only realistic shot we have at a superstar in the immediate future.

by trading Coilison they remove the CP3 trade rumors distractions. They give the team a decent/ relatively cheap player in Ariza to play with CP for a few years..

if ends up costing NoLA more money in the long run (posey 2 yrs vs Ariza 4) but keeps the franchise viable.

the Nets absorb some money and get a useful PF who is expiring at 11 mil for a player who is marginal in C Lee.

Houston must LOVE C Lee..

Wojo@Y! says it’s a done deal.

This trade makes sense for every team but Houston imo. Nets get a massive expiring who can help Favors along at the 4 instead of having an extra piece in Lee who wouldn’t get minutes with Williams/Outlaw there plus Morrow too.

NO gets a very solid swingman for their backup pg.

Indiana gets the pg they need.

But HOU, while getting rid of Ariza, who’s slightly overpaid imo, only gets Courtney Lee, who won’t even start with Kevin Martin there. Then their only other sf is Battier, who’s an expiring. It doesn’t make sense from their end imo.

Yes, I just said the same below. I don’t get it from HOU’s end unless they really want to get rid of Ariza’s contract. I think he’s slightly overpaid, but he’s a decent long-term guy to have at the small forward spot. Now all they have is Battier and maybe Jeffries. A lineup of Brooks-Martin-Lee won’t work at all imo. Far too small.

Doesn’t make sense unless they really want to get rid of Ariza’s contract.

I only dislike it from Houston’s perspective. I like Ariza and he is going to be worth that contract.

Not sure how much I like Courtney Lee though.

In order of how much I like deal:

1) Nets
2) Pacers
3) NO
4) Houston

Nets got a veteran PF who is an elite rebounder to play next to Brook. They dealt a young SG who can be replaced by T- Will or Anthony Morrow.

Good deal.

HOU ends up saving some money..

dont underestimate Dork Elvis.

Are you guys serious?

Gallo and Dirk have much more in common than Melo and Harrington. It’s not even close. Heck, Jordan Hill and Chris Bosh are closer together than Carmelo and Harrington.

The Melo hate on here is crazy imo

Good. I was afraid that the Knicks would trade Gallo and/or Randolph for Paul.

Felton
Gallo
Melo
Amare
Randolph

2011 starting lineup. That’s pretty damn solid to me.

i’d go Pacers, Nets, NoLa, Houston

lol. I never underestimate Dork Elvis, he’s one of the best in the game.

But it still doesn’t make much sense to me. Maybe they’re trying to save up cap space for 2011 to resign Aaron Brooks and they don’t want to go in to the luxury? Anyway, I don’t think they’re going to find a much better/cheaper option at small forward in the future.

And I definitely don’t see where Lee fits in with Kevin Martin already there. I don’t think he has the size to play the 3.

A point guard and 4 forwards?

Great move by Bird. Collison for taking the two years left on Posey’s deal and letting Murphy go. He could be the PG they’ve been looking for.

Dell Demps already showing CP3 that they’re willing to get him help. CP3, Ariza and West should be a pretty good trio.

I agree with Biggie, although I like your list too Chris.

Collison is a great haul for Murphy’s expiring and gives the Pacers their pg of the future.

Nets work out their first good deal of the summer. They get a crazy expiring for an extra unneccesary piece in Courtney Lee.

NOLA gets their swingman of the future and puts to bed the CP3 trade rumors for now.

HOU doesn’t make any sense to me other than that they save around 20 million down the line, which I guess is pretty nice actually now that I just looked it up.

I love this deal for the Nets. I think its a pretty good deal for the Hornets and Pacers. I don’t really like it at all for Houston.

The Nets got Murphy for Lee. That is a HUGE win! I think T-Will was going to beat out Lee anyway, plus the Nets also signed Marrow.

The Pacers also win, because they gave up an expiring for their PG of the future. They had to take back Posey though which makes it a good deal instead of a great deal.

NO gave up their backup PG for a starting SF, while getting rid of Posey’s contract. I’m not sure if NO has a good enough team around Paul to keep him, or win a championship. But its still a pretty good deal.

I don’t get this deal at all for Houston. They gave up their starting SF for an average SG. I guess they will move Marting to SF and start Lee at SG. I don’t think that makes them any better, but I guess they saved some money.

just saying..

Melo Shoots
31% from 3
46% overall
48% eFG
80% from the line

while taking nearly 20 shots per game and 8 free throws…

i dont even think that’s getting to the line enough given that volume of shots.

he takes less than 3 3 pointers a game BTW,,

look it up.

its not hate. id love to have melo on the knicks. but his game is similar to melo. melo is a better shooter, but they both like to shoot and take it strong to the hoop, using their bodies to get their shot off. but they both slow down the pace of the game.

again. not hate. id love for melo to be a knick. just saying.

oh.. and with ALL those touches he manages less than 3 assits per game.

look it up.

he’s elite and i’d take him but Im not doing back flips over it.

Great trade for the Pacers. I also would have thought NO could get more for Collison. If I was them and was going to take this all-in approach for Paul, I would turn around and trade Peja’s expiring for a long term contract someone else wants to get out of (like Rip Hamilton).

Paul
Rip
Ariza
West
Okafor

That’s a pretty good line up.

Beautiful trade for the Indiana Pacers.

+1

Lol stop it Big…

Melo’s just a better version of al harrington? are you kidding me?

oh yeah, ewing was just a better version of chris dudley.

Come on now.

bad analogy/

there are much more similarities between Buckets and Melo than Ewing and Dudley.

melo gets and takes and makes more shots (but not from 3) and is a caring defenDer when he cares to be and rarely passes.

not saying i woudlnt take Melo but just calling it like i see it.

other than the obvious hate for Buckets what is wrong with the comparison?

indy the real winner of the trade

Well, the biggest problem is that Melo is a winner, its as simple as that.

Without Melo, the Nuggets are a lottery team. With him, they almost beat the mighty Lakers a year ago and the guy is a beast, putting up close to 30 and 10 in the playoffs.

When has Al Harrington even come close to that? Carmelo takes over games at the end, willing his team to victory and being one of the most clutch players in the league.

Al Chucketts scores to the detriment of his team in the first 3 quarters, then routinely keeps chucking and missing in the 4th and almost always ends up doing more to harm his team than help them.

Melo is the complete opposite.

It’s not even close imo.

“Houston must LOVE C Lee..”

Idk about love.. Thought it was mostly a salary dump, no?

Definitely, the Pacers come out the best.

Collison and Granger are a good start to rebuilding.

@STEIN_LINE_HQ: ESPN.com sources: Hornets and Raps agreed to Julian Wright for Marco Belinelli

Hornets wheeling and dealing.

Whatever the deal is Houston is gonna be getting a good smart deal.

Morey is one of the best GM’s in the game.

Welcome to the system.

Other than the fact that they are both good scorers, I don’t see any similarities between Melo’s game and Harrington’s game.

Melo, while not a good defender, doesn’t jog back on every possession, and is more than willing to pass when he gets doubled.

Harrington seemingly welcomes double and triple teams so he can do his ridiculous spin move into the paint and get his shot blocked by 3 different players every time he tries it.

Melo is amazingly skilled in the post and off the dribble, and is a good rebounder for his size.

Harrington has no post game, has trouble finishing in the paint, can’t rebound well, and again only scores by taking shots the other team wants him to take, meaning chucks.

Melo gets the shot he wants to take every time, and while it doesn’t always go in, he would benefit extremely from being part of a team offense and not set isolations.

Harrington is incapable of being part of a team offense, and only scores off isolations.

There’s so many major differences between the 2 I see no basis for comparison, besides the fact that they both score a lot and don’t have great shooting percentages.

Gallo is not and never will be a 2.

8th seed just got tougher. _’antoni is out of here.

Morey played Walsh like a cheap violin at the trade deadline.

And we aren’t even to October, yet. Teams aren’t done. Make or break time.

LOL

That’s funny.

How exactly did the 8th seed get tougher?
Last time I checked the Knicks were shooting for the 7th or 6th seed.

i tend to call people who have actually Won Winners..

He won a College Championship.. i give him that.

his best playoffs was 31 and 8 BTW

i said he was a BETTER Al Harrington.. what’s so hard to understand about that.

lmao,u been drinking that kool aid from day 1 so i can’t knock you on on that

lol @traps9

if gallo plays the 2 the opposing guard will torch him he’s not quick enough to guard guards

just to cut through the Rhetoric a bit and inject some basic statistics into this debate..
career numbers
Melo
MPG 36.5
FGA 19.3
FG% .459
eFG .478
FTA 7.9
FT% .801
3FA 2.3
3F% .308
APG 3.1
RPG 6.2

Buckets
MPG 29.9
FGA 12.0
FG% .448
eFG .485
FTA 3.4
FT% .730
3FA 3.0
3F% .355
APG 2.1
RPG 7.0

and again, I’m just saying it’s baseless.

So Chris Paul isn’t a winner then either right? He’s never won anything.

Kobe’s not a winner without an elite big man.

Melo has carried his team through the playoffs before and almost took down the mighty lakers. He’s gone head to head with every elite player in the league at some point and come out on top.

If you’re going to bring up stats, how about clutch stats? Why don’t you compare Al and Carmelo? How about win-loss record and wins produced and PER, which accounts for possessions?

There is simply no comparison, imo.

And 30 and 10 is pretty darn close to 31` and 8. Aren’t you the one who just argued that Nash barely improved under Dantoni because he “only” improved by 2 pts and 1 assist or something like that.

LOL. You and Biggie bring Dantoni in to everything. You’re not quite as bad as X-man was(what happened to him), but it’s crazy how often you bring him up imo.

Will you be more happy if we win and surprise some teams or if we lose so you can say I told you so when Dantoni gets fired?

i would not describe CP as a winner ..

i said a BETTER Harrington..

As PipeDreaming said.. they both love to shoot and take it to the hoop with abandon.. and they are both ball stoppers

your opinion of Buckets is obviously tainting your opinion. Harrington has been a good player. Melo is BETTER but the same TYPE of player

thats all im saying.

LOL that analogy sounds worse than it is, but think about it…

Both are volume scorers who aren’t the greatest 3 point shooters and can play good defense when asked to, but won’t otherwise (Harrington was a considered a defensive stopper in Indiana).

Carmelo is much more versatile in the ways he scores though, he’s almost impossible to defend when he’s on. Great footwork, can take you in the post (which he should do more often, but wouldn’t in _’antoni’s offense), take you outside or put on the floor, take it to the rim, absorb contact (pause) and still score.

Problem is when he gets in the zone scoring he almost simultaneously becomes the worst defender on the floor (think Carmelo vs. Gallinari last year).

“Melo is just a BETTER version of Al Harrington.”

Biggie, out of all the idiots in all the idiot villages in all the world; that statment makes you the lead idiot.

I will now wait for Has to come to your defense.

“How exactly did the 8th seed get tougher?
Last time I checked the Knicks were shooting for the 7th or 6th seed.”

Well the season before last Indiana had a stretch of games where they played really well and looked like a playoff team, but injuries that year kept them out. If they trade for a natural point guard they could make noise. The Knicks are in a scrum for the 7th and 8th seeds, not the 6th, but that’s imho. Time will tell.

I’m not looking to say “I told you so” (well maybe only when DVJ makes his off the wall predictions lol), but I can’t say I wouldn’t be happy when _’antoni gets fired.

fair enough, but I still think even comparing the 2 does a major disservice to Melo.

They are not in the same league, and I don’t think the fact that they’re both good scorers makes them comparable players.

lol. Everyone likes proving DVJ wrong. No offense DVJ, I actually miss your crazy predictions.

Even a 3 point shoting, shot blocking big next to Brook could be trouble in the half court. The Nets could surprise if they overachieve defensively under Avery.

I think you guys are getting ahead of yourselves (as usual) with the Knicks winning 45+ games and 5th or 6th seed talk.

Again.. I never said Melo wasnt Elite. Never said he wasnt a Star.

just said his game reminds me of Bucket’s game.. only BETTER.

i get that Buckets is a hot button here.. but their games are similar.

Melo is BETTER and younger. His style just reminds me of Buckets .. dribble.. drive.. shoot.. head down.. no pass. shoot Free throw… rinse.. repeat.. do it a a low efficency rate 20 times a game.

I haven’t forgotten how DVJ predicted that Wall won’t be an impact rookie this season either. I think that is another “crazy prediction”.

you just dont get it.. It’s ok. you may some day.

Just for fun:

Kobe: FG% .456; 21.5 FGA; 7.4 FTA
Carmello: FG% .458; 21.8; 8.9 FTA

I can’t find stats on touches per game, but based on very similar FGA numbers, Melo gets to the line more and shoots at pretty much the same clip. Keep in mind that the Nuggets don’t have half the supporting cast the Lakers have.

Carmello has to take shots, besides Billups, there is no scorer or post presence to take the load off. The only large disparity is in assists, but the Nuggets have an elite point guard to set up the offense while the Lakers rely on Kobe to initiate more, and Carmello has very little options to pass too.

I’m not trying to say Carmello is better than Kobe, but lets not make it seem like they aren’t in the same class of player. The guy is asked by his team to do pretty much everything besides distribute the ball, the only knock you can give him is that he’s not dead-eye from three.

@knicksfan36
The lineup would be more like this

Felton
Melo
Gallo
Amare
Some kind of REAL CENTER

Melo much better playing the 2 if u have to do it and as was said earlier gallo cannot “D” any guard.

i get that the stench of Al Harrington is fogging some peoples minds.

trust me.. if Buckets never played here and never left us with such a putrid taste in our mouths no one would have a problem with the comparison..

Ive seen Buckets go microwave too BTW.. just obviously not as frequently as Melo does.. hence BETTER… a BETTER Al Harrington…

@HaS
I am not crazy about danphoni either but, if he does get fired, what happens to Isiah??? Someone help me out!

I hear ya big, but I wish you had used someone other than bucketts to make the comparison. I just dont think they are close enough to even say a better bucketts. There are many other SF’s that you could have chosen. Just not bucketts.

KObe is a first team all defense player.

Kobe not only gets his shot at will.. he sets up his team mates.

they are both Super stars. Kobe is top 3 Melo is top 10.

Melo a BETTER version of Chucketts! Man you must be on CRACK! Lilsmall pee-brain need to check yourself before making a stupid remark as that!

i didnt even say they were close..

i purposely put BETTER in all caps.

i merely said they are the same TYPE of player.

Melo’s game reminds me of Buckets on a number of levels.. only BETTER.

come to the table with at least some facts PrickNY

Hopefully he stays a “part-time consultant”, trust me I don’t think Isiah wants to coach the Knicks again. Even he isn’t that crazy, could you imagine the uproar? Isiah on the sidelines with that type of visibility and under that type of scrutiny every night? It’ll never happen. I think he’d be best served to stay in the background where he can attach his name to any successful move/take partial credit for the team’s success and rebuild his name incrementally that way.

I’m not some little kid so don’t talk like I am. To say Melo is a better version of Harrington is stupid no matter how old you are.

rockets n nets got screwed in the deal…. pacers made out the best and do u really think this will keep cp3 also if cp3 leaves they just effed them selves over ny dumpin a young good pg

A MUCH better version of Al Harrington with a much higher basketball IQ.

That being said, if I had to chose just one of them, I’d still rather have Chris Paul.

Fair enough – I just wouldn’t consider him an Al Harrington upgrade. He is obviously no Kobe, but Kobe wasn’t the defensive player he is now until two or three seasons ago – Carmello is only 25 and is already showing an increased commitment to defense.

you need to bring more to the table than calling poeple “idiot” and “stupid”

learn to express your opinion in facts not insults.

if you disagree great. tell me why or step away from the key board.

which one of our genius GMs traded away Ariza? (I think it was Isiah, but I’m not sure)

“learn to express your opinion in facts not insults.

if you disagree great. tell me why or step away from the key board.”

Seriously.

In fairness, the Pacers got a lot out of Troy Murphy last year, probably more than most realize. It’s not like Collison just fell into their laps.

Why would you not give up AR for Melo. We got him for David Lee?

That makes no sense to me.

Blasphemy kid, pure blasphemy.

I understand what you’re trying to say, that they both like to do certain things, but you are underrating just how much better Melo does all those things he likes to do than Harrington.

It’s like saying Kobe and JR Smith both love to drive to the basket and shoot three pointers – well Kobe does those things 1000 times better and also does other things that go unmentioned.

Melo is way more athletic and quick than Harrington ever was – he has dribbling skills and post moves and handles that Harrington can’t dream about. Melo doesn’t just stick his head down and hope to end up under the basket like Harrington does, he has moves, draws fouls…

It’s just unfair to say Melo has no defense when he usually defends the other teams best player, and compare that defense to Harrington who barely stopped anyone.

Both guys should be playing small foward, so there are some things that both do – they both aren’t asked to set up an offense, they are both bigger physical players – but you are comparing a slightly above average small foward to one of the three best in the league.

Biggie just “wanna be startin somethin” in here with that comment.

You get a mega Bloop! for that comparison, for real.

We can’t offer more than Ariza for Collison? Argh, that Jeffries deal (in which we lost Hill and a 1st rounder) is fricking killing us now.

And by the way, Biggie is completely right about Carmelo. I don’t understand how people say he is impossible to defend when he doesn’t shoot a very high percentage. And I’m just not sure that he fits next to Amare, especially without a very good center. We need a good C or an elite PG more than we need Carmelo.

Why the pause after “absorb contact”?

How did the nets gets screwed?? They gave up no assets (Lee probably wasn’t going to get starter minutes, and I rather have Morrow anyway imo) to get a double double guy who is an expiring as well.

thanks TT..

getting shots off and not making them (~30% from 3 and 44 e FG) sounds a lot like a certain unmentionable player.

but he takes 20 shots per game so i guess he fits in with the “Coach”.

whoops.. couldnt help myself.

I would give the Rockets an incomplete. I think they are making room for another trade, in which we may look back on this trade and say “Morey is a genious.”

higher BB IQ? ok /. that’s a new one.

i’d like to keep AR.. he’s 21 years old and could be a super super star..

in my opinion Denver could get the better of the trade if AR continues to develop and the flashes become light.

^ edit 48 eFG..

not great.

Before his his knees went a few years ago, Al Harrington was indeed a poor man’s Carmelo. Melo obviously is a LOT more refined that Harrington ever was, and has better court sense, but the comp is there in the stats (including adjusted +/-).

I do think Carmelo stepped up his D a tiny bit this year, and got in slightly better shape (remember that commercial where he took his shirt off a few years ago and looked very unimpressive?). Although his surface stats don’t look that different, his adjusted +/- got a lot better thjis year

That said,the Gallo/Randolph/Amare combo at the 3/4 spots is a strenght. Let’s focus on building our areas of weakness.

There is no comparison between Harrington and Melo.

do you think the Knicks could have gotten Collison for CHANDLER?

Ok we got it already…

I’m not sure how I feel about this deal for the Nets. Two realatively slow front court players to go alongside a running uptempo PG in Harris.

They are likely only getting a one year rental in Murphy and then are turning over the front court to Favors/Lopez while losing a pretty good SG in Lee.

Its not like they are winning anything next year anyway, I think they should have kept Lee and started Favors and grown with their youth.

good lol

Yeah. I think this trade worked out really well for the Pacers who have been desperate for a PG for a long time.

Trade also spells doom for the NYK fans who were desperate for Chris Paul. At least that is one fantasy out of the way, now when Melo resigns we can focus on our team.

Meaningless trade.

There is a comparison in the sense that they are both one dimensional players, and they both take bad shots. Obviously Melo is a MUCH better player, but they are the same type of player.

He’s got the same freaking FG% as Kobe! Why is everyone knocking his FG%?

A player who is asked to do a lot on offense from all over the court – like a Kobe or a Carmello, is going to have a relatively low shooting percentage.

Everything’s relative. The top FG%s are all big men, they are not all unstoppable – it’s all where they shoot. Emeka Okafor is not a better shooter than Carmello.

People say Carmello is impossible to defend because he scores at will over the leagues best defenders, he would create a lethal pick and pop, inside outside game with Amare. Melo has never played with a dominating inside presence, I’d love to see what he does – although I do agree I’d rather take an elite PG, just because I feel like they are harder to find than elite scorers.

And, the trade is a 4 way – it’s not as simple as just offering someone as good as Ariza. The Hornets wanted to also ditch Posey’s salary. The Pacers got Collison by giving up a serviceable expiring – everyone calls Murphy an expiring but he put up 14 and 10 last year, the guy is a player not just a contract – and taking back a bad contract. This would be the equivilent of the Knicks giving up Curry – except if Curry could play – and still taking back Posey, killing any chances of us signing anyone next year.

One dimensional?

Are you saying Carmelo Anthony is a one dimensional player?

Typically you and I are in agreement Big but I honestly can’t say that Buckets and Melo’s games are similar.

Melo at least plays D sometimes. Buckets never. Melo is the better rebounder and passer and is always the clear cut best player on his team and typically on the floor. He is also a consistent scorer unlike Buckets who can be extremely streaky. The only similarity to me is that they both love to shoot but you could say that about 90% of the forwards in the league.

For the 50th time, Carmello is not one dimensional – he’s not just a scorer! He’s not a point guard, he’s not Lebron getting 8 assists, but he plays tough defense, scores in a variety of different ways – inside, outside, and is a team leader. The guy has never missed the playoffs and has been the best player on his team since he was drafted, they only last year put a legit all star next to him, the guy is not a one dimensional player.

“And I’m just not sure that he fits next to Amare, especially without a very good center.”

I said this same thing about a month ago. Amare and Melo would not be an ideal pairing IMO especially at the defensive end of the floor.

huh?

I know you are just 21 years old but Kobe has Been All Defensive First team for 7 of the past 10 years

“but he plays tough defense”

Lets not take this thing too far.

LMAO.. no. of course not.

Anyone who puts up the numbers that Melo does is a star.

Al Harrington comparisons? Please.

Just a note: Everyone keeps talking about “Troy Murphy’s expiring contract” – I don’t think that was so much of a motive in this trade. The guy is a legit 14-10 guy with 3pt range. The Nets had cap room, they didn’t need an expiring unless they want to use it as a trade chip, but they don’t need it as a trade chip because they can take in more salary than they can trade out.

“in my opinion Denver could get the better of the trade if AR continues to develop and the flashes become light.”

See that is a big “if” though. If you have a chance to land a top 10 player in the league, you wouldn’t give up the “if” that surrounds AR to get him?

shooting for the 6th seed?

When did that happen?

You know what, forget I made mention of his statistics. Watch him play and tell me that 99% of the time, he is not he best, most talented player on the floor.

How many players in this league are better than Melo?

Yes I think I made that pretty clear. He doesn’t play good defense, he doesn’t rebound well, and he doesn’t pass the ball well. All he does is score, which is fine, but he is one dimensional.

Exactly. They missed out on the big free agent 4 men, so they went the trade route.

Murphy is legit and he is a good fit next to Brook Lopez and next to Favors. This move will not propel the Nets into contention, but it makes them a lot better than they were this morning.

I’m not saying he’s Kobe or Ron Artest, but he plays tough defense. I watched a lot of Nuggets game last year, the guy is not the stiff everyone seems to make him out to be.

For actual play by play proof, please see this article:

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/6443/is-carmelo-playing-a-better-brand-of-defense

Perfect quote: He’s always been a pretty good individual defender,” Nuggets head coach George Karl says. “It’s his off the ball situations, his transition situations, his conceptual situations where he got lost a little bit in the past. But he’s cut those mistakes in half.”

The guy is only 25. He has now realized the importance of defense and will only improve. Kobe didn’t start taking defense seriously till his late 20s.

He does not play “tough defense”… He is a multidimensional SCORER, but he is a one dimensional PLAYER. There is nothing wrong with that. But thats why he isn’t one the same level as guys like Wade, LeBron, and Kobe.

I guess you haven’t watched Carmelo play since Syracuse.

You can be a one dimensional player and still be very good. Melo is definitely a multidimensional SCORER, however, he IS a one dimensional player. He doesn’t rebound well, pass the ball well, or play good defense. How exactly is he a multidimensional player?

Any Nuggets fan will tell you that he plays soft on defense. Doesn’t mean he isn’t a great player though.

“Denver is up 10 points, as Dallas brings the ball up, needing to score to stay in the series. The Mavs run a two-man game on the right side with Josh Howard and Dirk Nowitzki. Howard holds the ball with Carmelo playing off him a little bit. Then Nowitzki runs interference by slipping between Howard and Carmelo — so now Dallas has the mismatch they want: Nowitzki/Carmelo. Howard feeds the ball to Nowitzki just off the mid-right post, his back to Carmelo, who bodies up on him tightly.

Trying to back Carmelo into the paint with his right shoulder, Nowitzki takes three dribbles with his left. On each dribble, Carmelo absorbs a blow to the chest by Dirk’s shoulder. Dirk picks up his dribble, then pivots on his right foot, trying with his patented ball-fake to deke Carmelo — only Carmelo doesn’t bite. Feet set and ready, chest out, arms extended upward, Carmelo stays grounded. Dirk goes to his contingency plan — a full 360 twirl on his pivot foot, hoping to get Carmelo to yield him some space for an up and under. Again, Carmelo holds his ground. Only when Dirk falls back for a fadeaway does Carmelo lunge, getting a full hand in Dirk’s face. The shot is no good. ”

- Kevin Arnovitz excerpt on a possesion from Game 5 Denver/Dallas

Yeah, that’s not tough defense.

you say he is not just a scorer but then have nothing to add about his game but he “scores in a variety of ways”

tough defense? he is capable but doesnt seem willing most of the time. similar to Harrington who was our best defender his first year here.

tell me what other dimensions Melo has.. even his most ardent defenders can only say he is a “gunslinger” and an “elite scorer”

when he is in shape (not all the time Btw) he can play some defense but he is by no means a candidate for any all defense teams or in any way known for being a strong defender.

Oh.. and Billups is the leader of that team.. unquestionably.

I’m to shocked to even argue about this.

You know when people start comparing Melo to Harrington something is up.

Melo is one of the best players in the league.

One dimensional? How many rebounds do you have to average for that to be considered a dimension of your game? Let me guess…at least 7 right? Since Melo averages a shade more than 6 for his career.

Get real.

Melo is a very inconsistent defender. Two years ago he said he was making a committment to defense and wanted to gaurd the best wing player on the opposing team but gave that up real quick because it is tough to do every posession for 82 games.

The way the Nuggets are built Melo has no choice but to score a lot of points. But he needs to be more of a consistent defender (like Wade and LBJ both of a similar age) to be considered one of the top 5 players in the league.

Does getting to the free throw line count as a dimension?

I’d say at this moment just Kobe, Wade, LeBron, and healthy Chris Paul.

I could see an argument for Howard and Durant though definitely.

Carmelo definitely looks good out there, but so does David Lee. Now, I will admit that Carmelo’s D got a lot better this year, but before this year, it kind of sucked. And it’s easier to play small forward when you play with two guys doing dirty work (Kenyon Martin and Nene) next to you.

Obviously, Carmelo is a great scorer and a really, really good player. (Better than Amare.) But given that we have Amare, and a good SF in Gallo, and Randolph, I just don’t think he’s a great investment. A good center or an elite two-way guard should be the focus.

Oh really? So why don’t you go find the Nuggets who told you that. Because I just showed you an article with breakdowns from scouts, assistant coaches, and George Karl who all pretty much conclude that over the past year, Carmelo has revitilized his defensive game.

murphy put up those numbers on an awful team. He’ll do the same this year on another awful team.

no playoff team is lining up for troy Murphy to be their starting Power Forward

he’s completely average at best

Does leading your team to the playoffs every year of your career count as a dimension?

Wow you mean he has had a good defensive play in his career? I didn’t say he was incapable of playing defense. After all, he IS an NBA player… That doesn’t mean he is a good defender lol.

Better than Melo:

Wade
Lebron
Kobe
Howard
Durant
Paul
Williams
Nash (although not for much longer)
Rose (maybe not yet, but I’d max him way faster than I’d max Carmelo)
Gasol (I know that few will agree with this, but he does everything)

Do you not understand what everyone is saying? NOBODY IS SAYING HE ISN’T A GOOD PLAYER! People are saying that he only is elite in one area of the game (offense), where as most super stars are elite in many aspects of the game. Nobody is saying that Melo isn’t a very good player. People are just pointing that out, and its completely accurate. I’m not sure what it is exactly that you are disagreeing with. Nobody is saying that he is as good as Chucketts. People are saying that their styles, and strength and weaknesses are similar.

Why are people saying Kobe just recently became a good defender? The guy has always been one of the better defenders in the league. Am I missing something.

And how are the Knicks going to be a six seed in the East without making a serious trade? Which of the following seven teams are we better than (barring a serious injury):

Heat
Celtics
Magic
Bulls
Atlanta
Charolette
Milwaukee

So who lead them to the playoffs the 6 years prior?

Where to you guys get this stuff?

You’re telling me, that a guy leads a team to the playoffs for 6 years, and then they get a veteren point guard who immediately assumes all leadership from the previous All Star? Really?

I’m not saying he’s All Defense. I’m saying his defense is at a level high enough that he cannot be described as one dimensional. He scores, he plays defense, he rebounds. The only thing he doesn’t do is distribute because he’s generally always had a top notch distributer around him. I bet you Kobe’s assists drop if you put him next to Chauncey Billups or Andre Miller.

Maybe it took Carmelo until 24 to start caring about defense, but it has already happened, and he is only going to get better and better on D. It took Kobe years to realize he needed to focus on defense. Carmelo is already over that hump and I don’t think it’s fair to label him as soft, or to call his defense a weakness.

Look, I’m not saying that Carmelo is bad, but he has never had a good adjusted plus/minus until the past two years, when he clearly got in better shape and decided to start playing defense (this year especially).

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/2214/testing-the-theory-that-carmelo-anthony-is-a-lousy-defender

Here is an article breaking down his defensive deficiencies.

Please explain to me why Charlotte is on your list when they lost their starting PG and their C? What makes it even more funny is the fact you have them ahead of the Bucks as well.

Scrap that list mayne.

That may be true, but it doesn’t make sense to call him an expiring contract when his expiring contract is irrelevent to the team that aquired him. It’s not like they traded long term contracts for an expiring one or saved any money.

Murphy is a dud. He’s Channing Frye with one or two post movies.

and i like Meo and wouldnt mind him in NY.. he’s in the top ten to 12 players ..

but you asked who is better? in no particular order

Dwayne Wade
Lebron James
Kevin Durant
Kobe Bryant
Dwight Howard
Rajon Rondo
Dirk Nowitzski
Amar’e Stoudamire
Monta Ellis (when healthy)
Brandon Roy
Tim Duncan
Chris Paul (when healthy)
Deron Williams

I think we are better than Charlotte, which is why I think we will get the 7th seed. No way we are better than any of the other teams though.

Nash (anymore), Rose, and Gasol are not better than Melo.

It is also tough to criticize Melo for being one dimensional but then put Howard amongst the best players in the league. Howard is a superior defensive player but his offensive game (other than Dunks) and his free throw shooting are seriously in need of a major improvement.

I also think it is popular to put Durant over Melo but let’s at least see Durant do it for a few years first. OKL city under him have only been a winning team for one season. Melo has led Denver to the playoffs every year he has been in the league.

Yeah, so the guy came into his own at age 23, an age many players are just being drafted into the league, and is now playing at an elite level and is only going to improve.

I’m not saying Carmelo came into the league an elite defender, I’m saying over the past two years the aspects of his game besides offense have greatly improved to the point where it’s not fair to call him “one dimensional”.

trenttucker

Wades career averages are
25.4 ppg 4.9 rpg and 6.6 assists

Melo’s career averages are
24.7 ppg 6.7 rpg and 3.1 assists

Wade is multi dimensional and Melo is one dimensional?

so now its a subjective “I know it when i see it”?

well that’s easy to debate.

SMH..

The Bucks are much better than the Knicks. Jennings, Salmons, Maggette, Gooden/Sanders, and Bogut is much better than our starting lineup. We are better at PF. Thats it.

You should be banned for that list.

To even think that Monta, Roy, D Williams or anybody on that list not named Wade, Lebron, Kobe or Howard is better than Melo is ridiculous.

at least 7

not when he shoots 80%

but thats another offensive shooting statistic..

what else does he got?

I don’t think he’s one dimensional now, but that he went from being completely one dimensional to being a really good scorer and a passable defender in the past year or two. And maybe it’s jsut a personal taste thing, but he pounds the rock quite a bit, too, which is something I do not enjoy watching.

Felton > Jennings
Chandler > Salmons
Galo > Maggette
Amare > Gooden / Sanders
Mother Russia < Bogut

Excuse me?

The list was not in the order of where I think they will finish, it is teams better than us on paper.

As for Charolette, Chandler was terrible for them and they got Dampier and Diop as adequate replacements for his production. They also have Tyrus Thomas who can give them some minutes at C.

Losing Felton will hurt but DJ is a good PG. Livingston, if he can stay healthy, will be an adequate backup.

But the main reason they are better than us is that Larry Brown will have them playing tough defense. Until we start doing that, you can’t say the Knicks are better than them. But even if I concede Charolette takes a step back, that is still at best a seventh seed no?

Check the adjusted plus/minus. Wade has completely dominated that stat almost every year of his career. Carmelo was a negative until two years ago. A fricking negative.

Monte Ellis? Are you kidding me? Talk about one dimensional. You have to be kidding me.

And, at this stage in their careers, I don’t know if Duncan and Dirk make the list.

I don’t understand what the difference is, in your eyes, between a guy like Dirk and Carmelo. Dirk always had the reputation as an elite scorer and weak defender who rebounds wayyy less than a power foward should. But at 31, at the downside of his career, he is still better than Melo?

Wade is clearly a better player than Melo all stats aside.

He is a 100x better defender and leader. That is not good player to pick.

And yes I think Melo is better than KD.

wade is first team all defense.

Just leave it alone JustinCharles…no point.

Ellis?

What year?

now THATS plain crazy

Yes, it was Isiah, but according to the revisionist history it was Larry Brown. Either way, Isiah was the gm at the time.

Not a Gasol fan, Biggie?

Rondo, Ellis, Roy, and Duncan are not better than Melo. I put him right in that second tier with guys like Nowitzki, D-Will, Paul, and Amare. One step below LeBron, Wade, Bryant, Howard, and Durant.

That makes one of you.

when healthy he’s a top 15 player.

What? Wade isn’t even in the top 25 in the plus minus stats.

What are you talking about?
Your one of those people that bring up plus minus stats?

Okay, I give up.
This argument is over.

All those but the last three; yup.

Felton > Jennings

Not based on last year.

Chandler > Salmons

As an overall player yes. As a SG no.

Galo > Maggette

Agreed but it is extremely doubtful that Maggette starts.

You can’t really do it like that anyway. It is about the team and its commitment to defense and playing together. Right now the Knicks are a ?. Bucks proved it last year.

D-Will with Boozer and a bunch of replacements beat up on Carmelo and healthier Nuggs team with home court last Spring.

Wait, he’s #17…right in front of Derrick Fisher.

LOL

Get out of here with that stat mayne!!

tell you what.. I’d take Rondo or Brandon Roy over Melo every day of the week.

I’d arguably take Duncan over him today if i wanted to win a chip.. even at his age..

Ellis when healthy is a similar volume scorer and much much quicker and a better passer.

yeah.. he’s top 15.. no question.

LOL think you’re looking for an “oy vey”

Adjusted plus/minus is very different from regular plus/minus, whcih tells you almost nothing. It controls for teammates (Wade’s have sucked recently) and opponents.

http://basketballvalue.com/topplayers.php?&year=2009-2010

Healthier?

Remember that player named Kenyon Martin? How healthy was he?

How about “The Birdman”?
He wasn’t all that healthy either.

Now Utah is no good?

LOL are you serious? Not one of those things is true, except for Amare being better than Gooden Sanders, and I said that in my post.

Jennings is WAY better than Felton. I can’t believe you are denying that. In what way is Felton better than BJ?

Salmons is a MUCH better SG than Chandler. Its not even close.

Right now, Maggette is better than Gallo, although Gallo will be better.

You are seriously saying a guy who has never played in the NBA is better than one of the best centers in the entire NBA? Thats insulting to anyone with any knowledge of the game.

Quicker?

I guess that’s a dimension as well?

Dirk is a smarter player, a better power player and a better passer

I’m just so confused as to why a guy like Ellis or Dirk would not be considered one dimensional?

What does Ellis do better than Carmelo? His best asset is using his speed to get into the lane. That is one dimension if I’ve ever seen it. He is not an above average passer for a point guard, he is invisible on defense, he doesn’t have a great jumper.

Plus/minus without adjustment is the same as won/lost record. Only by controlling for who your teammates and opponents are do you get a clean stat. That’s what adjusted plus/minus is. All the good GMs (Morey, Presti, etc.) use adjusted plus/minus, efficiency, and the other advanced stats.

passing is a dimension.

so is defense.

trenttucker

You send me a link with the “adjusted” plus minus breakdown and I see James Harden at #8?
And you want me to put faith in your list?
You need to erase that list.
That plus minus stat whether or adjusted or not means nothing.

Thats true, but the Jazz were a much better team, and had much better chemistry. I don’t think its fair to blame Melo for that.

Actually, I think second-team, Biggie. Three times, though: ’05, ’09, ’10

for YOUR purposes take him off the list.

when healthy he is in the conversation of top 15 in the league.

so is Melo.

if you read carefully i said NO particular order.

LOL

Howard is the modern day Bill Russell. He’s okay on offense but so dominant on defense, it’s ridiculous. Teams just cannot bring anything into the pain on him. He’s one of the biggest game changers out there. His impact on D is like Kobe’s on offense.

Oh NVM you said worse than Bogut lol. I’m glad you aren’t that blind!

no way is Monta Ellis better than Carmelo imo. Same goes for Rondo(although he had a dominant playoffs) and Duncan(at this point in his career).

My list of better players:
1. Kobe
2. Lebron
3. Wade
4. Howard
5. Maybe Nowitzki. I say Carmelo and Dirk are tied here.

Actually DVJ said Bogut was better than Mosgov.

Maybe Ellis is quicker, but he is a tiny PG, of course he is going to be quicker. That is like me using Carmelo’s height as a reason why Carmelo is better.

And a better passer, yeah, of course, again, he’s a point guard, and he is a below average passer for a point guard.

He averaged 6.2 assister per 48 minutes, below such exceptional passers as Chris Quinn, Rip Hamilton, Delonte West, Coby Karl, and Hedo Turkoglu.

I actually love Dirk as a player and understand why he’d be on the list and his importance in Dallas.

I was just wondering why you would put him on a list of players better than Melo, even completely healthy.

All the knocks on Melo you could put on Carmelo, except Carmelo’s weakness – passing – is something not at all expected from a SF, while every team expects more than 7 or 8 rebounds from there PF.

Understood. But that doesn’t mean he isn’t one dimensional. I agree that Howard is a top 5 player in the league (maybe top 7) but how can you criticize Melo, one of the purest scorers in the league but then praise Howard.

when did i say being a one dimensional player precludes you from top 15 status.

i’ve said time and again that Melo is a top 15 player.

Harden only has one year in the league so you can discount his 2-year adjusted plus/minus. If you read the site they talk about how it’s hard to build real analytical strength (so that they can control for teammates AND opponents) with just one year of data. So Harden’s stats are swayed by the fact that he played for a good team more than most people (who have more than one year of complementary data to control for), doesn’t get a ton of minutes, and is on the second unit (so the guys he is on the court against aren’t that good — all why another year of data will balance this out).

So, Harden’s figure will very likely go down next year. That said, he is a two-way player, whose team does appear to do better when he is on the court.

Note that the Knicks really only had one positive adjusted plus/minus guy last year: Gallo. Any knowledgeable Knicks fan surprised by this?

Yeah I know I corrected myself. Still, the Bucks hold the advantage at PG, SG, and C. SF is a toss up, and the Knicks hold the advantage at PF. The Bucks also have better chemistry, and have proven they can win. The Knicks still need to develop chemistry and haven’t proven anything.

He’s a better power player even though he is a PF who does most of his work with fadeaways and jump shots, while Carmelo drives to the basket?

I can’t argue a better passer or smarter player because I think they are very subjective measurements. I mean I’m sure Melo gets more assists than Dirk but that is expected from a SF. I think both pass out of the double team fine when they are trapped and don’t see such a discernable difference. Smarter, whatever, again there is no arguing that because there is no real way to prove it other than the fact that Dirk is slightly more efficient than Carmelo.

But a better power player? I know that Dirk was unfairly labeled soft for many years, but really, a better power player?

ellis over CARMELA that’s a no brainer.
again the warriors had no players so ellis had to take the shots last season,check his stats while with b.davis the season b4 the injury he shot 50 percent from the floor an that season his mid range game was 1 of the best in the league.

Actually I thought it would have been Jeffries and all his “intangibles”.

What a F’n joke that was when TKB was pumping up Jeffries like he was Ron Artest or something.

6’3 an about 185 rondo is 6’1 170 now who’s tiny,it’s all about skills size doesn’t matter when u have the skills.

lol. That was the worst.

Gallo does not surprise me at all lol.

nto when he is going to be FA next year.

For CP 3 yes

lmao@ CARMELA better than durant,it’s u so it’s acceptable

FisolaNYDN
Rumor going around that Knicks will issue statement that Isiah now won’t be an official consultant. Doesn’t mean he can’t talk to Dolan

Good news fella’s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Disagree that Charlotte is better. I don’t think Dampier or Diop are starting C’s. I also see Augustin as a huge downgrade from Felton. I like Livingston, but it remains to be seen whether he can be an impact player again. Diaw is decent but nothing special. I think the Knicks have a big advantage at PG and PF, neither team really has a true starting C, and Wallace and Jackson are better than Chandler/Azubuike and Gallo. I think the Knicks are better because the players compliment each other better. Felton, Amare, and Gallo all compliment each other perfectly. I’m not sure that Wallace, Jackson, and Diaw do. Also, the Knicks have a bunch of players like Randolph, Azubuike, and Chandler that could really break out this year.

kobe
lebron
wade
howard
durant

sometimes this site is so annoying lol. Trying to post a link to a Hollinger article naming the top 15 ballhogs in the NBA(espn insider) but it’s not working.

Carmelo is not named, but I don’t think this proves anything I just think it’s interesting to read. My favorite is the part about Al harrington lol:

Al Harrington, Knicks
Just call him Seven Milliseconds or Less — Harrington is shooting off the catch unless there’s a darned good reason not to. Like if he’s on his own side of half court, for instance, or if he’s trapped under something heavy. Otherwise, it’s time to hit the boards.

While Harrington’s decent percentages make him one of the more innocuous gunners, his tunnel vision (7.8 assist ratio) is shocking. Only two players with a usage rate higher than 24 have a worse assist ratio, and those two (Amare Stoudemire and Chris Kaman) are interior players; Harrington is doing this from the perimeter.

Jeffries is a very good defender. Aside from the terrible contract, though, he just ran into the absolute worst system/coach for his play. That, and he can’t make a lay up to save his life lol.

Buckets was a good defender when he first came here.

if you remember he was often put on the other teams best player..

grsnted he physically could not keep up the last year or so largely due to injuries..

Houston gets $7.5 million in savings off this deal. Lee gets $5 million less than Ariza and then they save another $2.5 million in luxury tax. They owed Ariza $28 million over the next 4 years. So that’s why they make this deal.

They should be around $24 million under the cap next year with Yao possibly needing to be resigned.

“Harrington is shooting off the catch unless there’s a darned good reason not to.”

Only if he doesn’t catch the ball…

Anyway since I can’t post the link just google it and you can eventually come across a forum called spurs talk which reproduced the article(since it’s insider and I don’t have access to it.

Monta Ellis is absolutely trashed in the article. I’ll copy and paste this also:

Monta Ellis, Warriors
The unquestioned captain of our all-gunner team, Ellis plays like the “2″ on the shot clock isn’t there and is seemingly oblivious to the fact most of his teammates are better shooters. If not all of them, actually … Ellis actually has the worst TS% of any Warriors rotation payer, including the three D-League call-ups, yet is far and away the team leader in usage rate. He has the highest usage rate of any guard with a negative pure point rating, and the seventh-highest of any player in the league … yet Golden State has the league’s 21st-best offense when he’s on the court and the second-best when he’s not.

They save $10 million just this year.

I think they’ll regret trading Ariza once CP3 makes him look like an all-star, but $10 million is a lot of money for other teams.

FisolaNYDN
Rumor going around that Knicks will issue statement that Isiah now won’t be an official consultant. Doesn’t mean he can’t talk to Dolan

Good news fella’s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Funnily enough, Jeffries was a positive, too — I just didn’t mention it.

http://basketballvalue.com/topplayers.php?year=2009-2010

So was Darko, but he doesn’t count because of low minutes. And Eddie House’s numbers (also positive) are swayed by his time in Boston.

I think Durant might end up being the best out of all of them, but until he leads his team past the 8th seed and the 1st round of the playoffs I can’t put him ahead of Carmelo, Deron, or Paul.

Morey strikes again. Ugh.

Al chuckster an carmela are very identical
ofcourse CARMELA is the better player only by 7 8 pts..they both suck a D can’t pass both suck a rebounding especially Al cuz he’s a power.

. It took Kobe years to realize he needed to focus on defense

ummm Kobe was FIRST TEAM NBA ALL DEFENSE by the time he was 21 years old.

alot are better overall players than CARMELA

Yes, good news, but a little piece of me already died and will stay dead since I know that Dolan wants Isiah back.

@biggie LOL I have been reding this debate for a while and with all due respect for your opinion I would have to say you are being a bit biased with how you judge Melo. The kid is top 5 as far as talent and potential. For all you Durant fans you guys should get NBA league pass and actually watch a game or 2 before you submit crazy opinions. Did you know that Melo completly out plays Durant when they match up? Did you know how many times he embarassed Lebron on Offense? Do you know how well he defended Kobe which can’t be said of Durant,or Lebron. Kobe,Wade,Lebron are the only players I would put above Melo as far as talent. When a guy says that Ellis is better than Mello or that Melo is a BETTER version of AL-Chucketts you have to question his sanity.

you think the Nets consider him more than an expiring contract and a place holder when they have Derrick Favors waiting in the wings?

When Murphy comes off their books they will have a nice chunk of change to spend on quality players.. and i guarantee that Troy Murphy s NOT in that conversation unless it is at a small fraction of his current cost.

I feel you on that. Just thinking about it leaves a bad taste in your mouth.

really.. how dismissive is that in a debate..

forget all teh stats.. i see what i see with my eyes..

LAME>

Harrington was a good defender Pre-_’antoni and Pre-_on Nelson. In Indiana he was considered a defensive stopper.

2nd team .. i stand corrected..

what year was Melo in the conversation for that award?

“Right now, Maggette is better than Gallo, although Gallo will be better.”

“Gets Up Walks Away.”

thats why i said WHEN HEALTHY>.

people read what they want to see.

SMH

Completely unrelated: Am I the only one who didn’t realize that Amare’s twitter name “Amareisreal” looks a lot like “Amare Israel”? (I’m in the tribe.) This dude is hilarious.

Yummy, a Melo debate.

Biggie: I actually made the harrington ‘comparison’ once. It really makes people jump out of there seats at first. We all know Melo is an unbelievable player, worlds better than harrington will ever be. The point, i think, is that melo’s ‘style of play’ is someone who like to score in one on one situations; a volume shooter who, when he gets on a roll, might lose sight of what else is going on, on the floor.

That doesn’t mean they are similar at all, it’s just a way of describing a flaw to his game. Melo can’t be the leader of a contender like lebron, or IMO, CP3 could be. I would take CP3 over melo any day of the week.

Where i differ from BIGGIE is that i think melo has improved that flaw of his game, every single year. he started out as one of these young selfish personalities who doesn’t really understand the finer points of the game because he was ‘raised to be a star” (see any given sunday). But i really think he has matured a lot. He plays much better defense now, and he is one of the more physical 3′s in the game, on both ends of the floor; not just offense. He has become an MVP caliber player, not just an elite scorer.

That being said, If you take him as your number one, and expect to build around him and be champions, you’re probably not in great shape.

This is all moot though, because even big will agree that if he wants to sign here, we sign him. I’m just saying i would much, much rather have CP3 or D-Will.

Melo is Bernard King 2.0

“Wades career averages are
25.4 ppg 4.9 rpg and 6.6 assists

Melo’s career averages are
24.7 ppg 6.7 rpg and 3.1 assists

Wade is multi dimensional and Melo is one dimensional?”

6.6 assists from the SG spot is not good it’s great and his defense doesn’t show up on the stat sheet.

There is a reason Carmelo doesn’t get mentioned when talking best player in the league.

People are too caught up in superstars being multidimensional. You can say melo is only a great scorer but you have to be an elite defender to be considered one of the greatest. I don’t buy that. Wade, leBron, Kobe, Durant, Nash, CP3, yea, they can all defend, but does there defense really make the difference on their teams. Everyone knows that big-man defense and good team communication is what makes great defense. Perimeter players should be good at it and try really hard, but to sit there and say he is a week defender and therefor not in their caliber is false.

The problem has less to do with how “good at defense” he is, and more just court awareness in general. Kobe’s defense is good but it is really not a deciding factor for the lakers. But when he gets the ball, you just get that feeling that he knows exactly what to do, even if it doesn’t involve him in the end. You see that with nash and cp3 and lebron, but melo hasn’t got there yet. THAT is his missing aspect, not “defense.”

Again, no perimeter player superstars are labeled as such because of their defense.

If Defense is just as important, than Ron artest is just as good as melo and durant.

Grow up and move on man! Hate & bias is an ugly disease get treatment!

CARMELA hasn’t improved jack dude,he still can’t get out the first round,billups blessed him 2 years ago but it’s back to the same CARMELA.he’s no type of leader he got no kind of leader skills,he doesn’t know when to score shot drive pass=thats why he has a low b-ball i.q

lmao..that is hella funny.
u can watch all u want but if u don’t have a high b-ball i.q it doesn’t matter what your seeing.

And by the way.

LeBron, Durant, and Deng are the ONLY small forwards in the league who average more rebounds per game than melo.

So yes, that is another dimension of his game.

After reading all the posts, I have one thing to say, Carmelo Anthony is a better version of Al Harrington.

DaGawd on suicide watch…

lol

Not crazyier than “Roy over Melo”

SO this thread is about Collision getting traded on the cheap and not to use and all I read about is Melo & more Isiah bashing!?! The hornets basically traded Collison for Ariza are you telling me we could not do better then that?? Collison is better then Felton if we traded for him we would not have a worry at PG and can use Felton at the deadline in a package to upgrade weather it is melo or whatever.

Geez man asleep at the wheel again huh Magoo!!

Monta Ellis and Tim Duncan??

You’re better than that Big, this is ridiculous!

duncan at his age is still a much better OVERALL player than CARMELA u all are just like the coach damphony danphony

CARMELA never lead his team,BILLUPS did,come pay attention to basketball

yo BLACK u know the deal dude,i bet zeke would of gotten d.col,don’t know what he would of traded but u know zeke would of gottan him mayb even cp3.

collison is light years ahead of DUHON AKA FELTON an dude just came into the league

Maybe Demps never called Donnie or never answered the phone when Donnie did call. This seems like it came outta nowhere.

Devils advocate, yeah, he could have heard about it and done nothing about it.

Just for arguments sake, who would you have given up for Posey/Collison?

“There is a reason Carmelo doesn’t get mentioned when talking best player in the league”

Carmelo Anthony would’ve been way more succesful in the Eastern Conference.

By the way Melo was Kenny Smith’s pick for 2009-2010 MVP before the start of the season. Who cares if he’s rarely mentioned in “best player in the league” conversations. He’s CLEEEEEAAAARLY a top 10 player in the league. He would be the first legitimate franchise players the Knicks’ve had since Patrick Ewing, the fact that we’re here talking about Melo’s “lack of defense” or Monta Ellis is absolutely crazy.

For the record, this is sarcasm.

Patrick Ewing was a better version of Chris Dudley.

Aight lol

Only slightly though. Dont knock on my man Duds!! He had a career PER of 10.7. In his last year it was -1.2! lol

FWIW, Melo’s PER last season was 22.2, Kobe’s was 21.9 and Chuckett’s was 16.8.

come on dude,u going to post some by a guy just cuz he works for espn u do know most of those guys have no idea rite an just in it for a CHECK,all that plus minus sh8 is stupid.

if u didn’t know carmela took more shots than ellis did last year.come on now.

lmao@ franchise player.
dude can’t even take his team out the first round,BILLUPS had to lead them 2 years ago.

u youngNz have no clue

Notes:

1) Pacers made out like bandits. I could be making this up but it seems like small market teams like helping each other out. 4 team deal that appears somewhat lopsided. Collison’s value is sky high. I feel as though NO could have gotten more.

2) It’s very telling that Houston would give up the newly acquired Ariza for C. Lee one season into his contract. Lee is a decent player and a great defender, but Ariza had a lot more hype this time last season.

3)Is NO setting themselves up for disappointment? Will Ariza simply be their new Posey? If so that could be driving CP3 into the arms of another team.

If he’s available the Knicks have to take him, I’m on the record with that. The Knicks would at least have him in the fold and could work on getting a coach that can get the most out of Amar’e and Carmelo defensively after the fact. Those 2 players + _’antoni are not a good mix, especially when they would clearly have to be the leaders of your team.

Over the course of the next 5-7 years with “Miami Thrice” in South Beach the Knicks are going to have to become a defensive juggernaut in order to compete with that team and contend for the Eastern Conference Finals. Does anyone here believe that will happen with Amar’e and Carmelo as your leaders being “coached” by _’antoni? I don’t.

“Carmelo Anthony would’ve been way more succesful in the Eastern Conference.”

Why?

He’d just be overshadowed even more by LeBron and Wade, his defense would be seen in even starker contrast than it is already compared to those two imho.

bingo Jeff.. you see exactly where im coming from..

thanks for the re write.

im not sure he will ever win a MVP but
i enthusiastically
co sign.

That’s a great point blackwood, a lot of people here were willing to take on Okafur’s contract in order to get Collison (not me) and apparently it only took Posey’s contract which is by far the lesser of the two evils.

read the top of the thread Blackwood.. we talked about it .. but how much can you write about a trade that doesnt involve us?

it takes CP3 off the market.. that’s the knicks POV. so the convo turns to Melo .. Buckets 2.0

Chandler & TD would of filled there SF needs and cover them as far as back up PG would of thrown Walker or Fields in if need be.

at least Ariza is a young piece that can grow with CP3.. Posey is on his last legs.

PER is an awful stat.

was thinking about that comparison to get the convo off Buckets..

The reason im shocked is that people are not more heated that Collison another PG that we could of drafted and could of from the look of things traded for is off the board for us. Are people so fooled in to being good with Felton being the PG that its like whatever? Collison vs Felton is not even close! Collision is far better so why is there no heat on Magoo for not making the best move for the team? It is crazy to me because every single fan who post here wanted Collison. Bezaro world to me.

I would of moved on Collison in a heartbeat and would be in the loop as soon as anything came in the mix as the GM of the Knicks. Posey and Collison? maaann asleep at the wheel I am telling you HaS its crazy what people can be cool with lol dont it bug u out?

Yea but he is in his last year big I take that contract in a heartbeat to get Collison. Ariza has the same knock on him that Chandler does and thats the perceived basketball IQ issue. I am shocked that people are taking this screw up so lightly but oh well I guess we got Felton right? lmao

Only 7 or 8 pts ???? Really??? Seriously??? Wow dude well I guess jordan was only 7 or 8 points better than reggie miller or even maybe clyde drexler as well. Sheesh! The comparison between the 2 is that they are both forwards and like to shoot. Who the frack doesn’t and is a forward in the NBA? Just for the record 7 or 8 points can make a big difference. Wow! This is getting painful!

Wades career averages are
25.4 ppg 4.9 rpg and 6.6 assists

Melo’s career averages are
24.7 ppg 6.7 rpg and 3.1 assists

Wade is multi dimensional and Melo is one dimensional?

I agree 100%
Anybody got stats for other SG or SF’s???
Reggie Miller
Clyde Drexler
I mean put stats for a couple of them and see how it stacks up. To me Melo averages seem very good for a SF…

The point is that Ariza was supposed to be the young piece that was going to grow with Aaron Brooks. Why did they give up on him so quickly with Battier on the last year of his contract?

I wouldn’t have taken on Posey’s contract to get Collison when we could have just signed Felton outright.

Felton and Collison are very comparable imo, and having Felton’s expiring next year will be very good for us. That can be a big trade chip..

I agree Circle. The fact is they save well over 20 million dollars I guess by doing this deal. I still think they are going to regret it though.

Hey Big some on that list I could argue and I know it is now very popular to say Kevin Durant and that might end up being the case but I think it is a little pre-mature. Give Kevin at least 3 years of the same and going to the playoffs first. But I would also like to point out wouldnt it be better to just put melo up against players of the same position? So just SF types. Not centers and PF or guards, especially point guards. It would be a better comparison to match him up against SF in the league that actually have to guard him and he guard them. Then maybe his stats may stand out better. I think we all know he is not Lebron James but then who the heck is?? Lebron is a triple threat but not many players in the history of the NBA are. That is why I wanted LBJ on the Knicks!!!! All toney douglas would have had to do was catch the ball and shoot.

[...] Source [...]

@traps
I agree with the jeffries not making a lay up? What the frack is that? He is 6’11″ how hard can that be???

Hey trent dolan never wanted Isiah to leave. He was forced… I hope you all get that now!!!!!!!!

Felton is not comparable to Collison not even close IMO but please share why you feel they are? Collison stats where far greater in every aspect and he was not even a starter the whole year. Why not take Posey’s expiring? Collison can be the long term PG solution. Felton is not that good guys he is just ok Collison has been very good out of the gate on a team with half the talent that the bobcats and Felton had. But I do want to hear more about your view maybe theres something I am not seeing.

@oscar
You are really funny dude… I agree hahahhaha LOL!
No doubt melo is a top 5 player!

@grahambo86
I think donnie didnt pick up the phone because he was busy having lunch with Isiah!

Stop biggie stop!

I think while Collison was very impressive, he was put in a position to succeed by basically being made the focal point of his team after Paul went down.

Don’t get me wrong, he was really impressive, but I don’t think his production will hold up on that kind of level for long. NO has a very pg friendly system(just like us lol) and they made it their focal point to play Collison and Thornton as basically their stars once Paul went down.

Both are impressive, again I want to stress that I agree they are both extremely impressive, but I definitely think Collison’s numbers will take a dip.

lmao could be!! I mean someone has to help donnie with his pea soup lol.

Question is would they dip in NY with Mr. Run & gun? I mean the rebuttal I hear a lot is that Felton’s numbers will go up under MD so then I would say imagin what Collison would do. I will say i am not very impressed with Felton I find him to be about average maybe a little more then that on a good night while Collison has been impressive from go! Not just scoring but assist wise and running a system.

I agree, Collison is more impressive as of the moment.

I just think Collison will return to earth, because he played out of his mind last year and I don’t necessarily see the extreme talent that would be consistent with the numbers he put up.

He’ll be good, but I don’t think he’ll be much better than Felton, who is a solid pg with a good contract.

I’d prefer that, especially when it becomes a trade asset next year when it’s expiring.

We shall see my friend I still feel he is the other PG we missed on in that draft and another one we will regret not making a move on not once but twice.

Whats done is done and while we over paid for Felton we shall see what he brings to the table. but hey you never know maybe Felton Gallo Fields and change can get us Deron Williams if the jazz suck this year! ;-D i can dream right? lol

lol, my friend, as a Knicks fan, you have to dream. That’s all we have lol.

BTW, I agree. That was a bad draft for Walsh. If we could have Collison instead of Douglas, I would do it in a second.

I just think Felton makes him somewhat redundant, and taking on Posey’s contract would not be good for us.

I dreamed a dream that we had a real PG at last lol.

Yea man it is just not what he does well at all we should be set at PG for the foreseeable future! And I have said on a few occasions I would of went Gordon over Gallo (not a shot just a preference based on position and need)

Monta Ellis better than Melo? haha

Kobe, Wade, Bron, Howard, healthy Paul and that’s it. Durant maybe in like a year but not quite yet.

Right, I guess I don’t have a high basketball IQ because I don’t see how Monta Ellis is better than Rose let alone Melo.

Zeke would have traded Ant Ran (if he could even get him in the first place) and 2 future 1sts for Collison.

How is Collison and Felton not even close? Collison is younger and looks to have at least a bright if not much brighter future, but Felton is still a good player despite was dalackofknowledge seems to think. I understand that last year was Collison’s first and he could easily get better, but they put up more or less the same stats. I don’t know much about Collison’s defense because I didn’t see him play too often, but Felton is a very good defender too.

Yea he had a bad playoff series against Jameer Nelson, we get it. Joe Johnson had a bad playoff series it doesn’t mean he’s a bad player, these things happen. It was also Felton’s first playoff series.

rose is good but not better than monta.

I have no Idea where 5th or 6th seed is coming from lol….Heat,Bulls,Magic,Celtics,Bucks,
Hawks thats the top 6 right there so that leaves to spots for the rest and the Wiz and 76ers could end up being much better!

nonsense! Tell me one young upside player he ever traded other then Ariza who he fought to keep but Larry dumb ass brown forced to trade because did not like rookies and wanted Francis.

Snap back to reality fauci933

Felton has been in the NBA going on 6 years and never showed anything until last year where he was some what better with twice the talent that Collison had around him. Collison in his first year matched Feltons best season in his rookie season while Felton’s best season was last year his 6th. So who has the better upside? who did the most with the least? There where games last year where Collison was unstoppable and one of if not the best player on the court. So IMO Collison is way better and he is not even as good as he can be while we have seen the best of felton.

Off the top of my head, whoever we could have gotten with the unprotected draft picks he sent to Chicago to get Eddy Curry.

And yea I know you’ll come back with some lame “Mr. Magoo traded draft picks” and that was a very different situation so don’t bother.